Jolla + Sony Xperia Q&A

1) The slides stated that SFOS will be supported on a range of devices. Will those devices be available from the jolla store or a user can buy (from any ventor) and then install SFOS on one.?

2) Will sony give jolla access to the SW that powers its really good cameras so SFOS can fully exploit them?

3) Can we have a compact X on the store tomorrow :P

PS. I am so excited about this :D :D

Mee too...almost nose-bleeding like hyped... posting here for later reads hope we will get here more details.

4) will it support Android as previous "official" devices?

@pemek that would be a must...alien-dalvik is unfortunately too much needed on everyday basis.

1.) Will the Dual Sim models be supported if the single sim devices are going to receive SFOS?

2.) When can we expect the first Xperias with SFOS?

1) Will the devices be pure SFOS, or will they be dual boot?

2) If pure SFOS, will there be a way to install Android instead?

Looking at it, Jolla and Sony will not sell the Xperia phones with SFOS, but Jolla will make an official image that Sony will allow to put on Xperia device

Related to @ApB's first question -

I imagine it will be an official port of SFOS onto an Xperia already running Android. If this is the case, will there be a clear, step-by-step process to help those Jolla fans who don't have great tech knowledge (i.e. someone like me)?

Is it limited to the Xperia X? Or are further models due to be supported?

To what extent are Sony involved? Are they simply allowing their hardware to be ported onto, or are they looking at becoming an official partner? In essence, in the future, could we buy a Sony device running SFOS?

Can I buy an Xperia X series of my choice and have eventually the capability to have full SFOS experience (exchange, alien dalvik, jolla store, etc) on it?

Will the Xperia devices hardware support be provided by Sony, by Jolla or both?

I mean mainly in EU but would be nice to have an answer about other regions as well

"To what extent are Sony involved?" to me is clear from the press release that Sony is a partner and there will be Xperia X devices sold wit SFOS loaded. Maybe I'm wrong

I think you may be right, at least that's what I've read reported on a couple of tech sites, but it'd be nice to have that confirmed.

Please Jolla give us support for the X Compact with Alien-Dalvik and EAS and access to the Sony bits of the device like native camera drivers (CM always struggled in camera support on Sony devices)

1) Didn't get the question. Sailfish OS supports both single and dual sim

2) Jolla already gave the answer for that: by the end of Q2/2017

PDF of today Jolla's press releases: https://together.jolla.com/question/157572/mwc17-xperia-x-jalasoft-and-inoi-r7/?answer=157602#post-id-157602

@ Sthocs: If the dual sim slot needs different drivers there is additional work to do to support those models.

Thanks for answering question 2. :-)

1: Is there on the Sony Experia Android-support within Sailfish?
2: Is the hardware fully supported, as in no surprises as a camera that doesn't work?

In the EU the device manufacturer is providing hardware support. Might be necessary to flash android during HW checking as there will probably be no SFOS capable shop be at reach.

Plain X is announced, others to follow. (I know you cannot wait for it, me neither!) Hardware differs in screen size eg display and drivers for that so basically yes but might need a hand with additional drivers.

Will there be full support by Jolla/for SFOS for the Xperia X compact as well?

Ah, didn't see the third item of your list before posting my answer with question for Xperia X compact support. Sorry.

Very intressting indeed. When Will this happen. Is jolla/Sony responsible or Will this be another LOLware were none takes responsibility for the customers?

Are you aiming for daily use here a playground for devs with plenty of bugs?

Is Sony really involved or do jolla only utalize the device program?

Anywayz gr8 news!

How does Jolla benefit from offering an image that can be flashed on Xperia devices ? Meaning, how does this ensure/strengthen Jolla's financial situation ?

Does the cooperation include Xperia tablets ?

alright, but my point is mainly focused on: can I buy a plain X and be able in the future to install SFOS on it or that will not be possible and the only way to have the full SFOS will be to buy the X model shipped with SFOS installed?

Just to remind you. This is your second message without "refund" word.

USB Type-C and a smaller form factor makes Xperia X Compact more attractive than the Xperia X to me.

Well maybe Sony wants some backup to Android - just in case - like Tizen for Samsung or Ubuntu for BQ and Meizu - and is spending some money for that - but all wild guess of course ...

I want to know this too ... I REALLY, really want a Sailfish OS tablet ... but looking at the specs, the Sony Xperia Z4 tablet is 64 bit. So we may need to wait till Sailfish OS is ported to 64 bit platform. The Z2 and Z3 use 32bit CPU's though ... keeping my fingers crossed!

Will the Sony Xperia X running SailfishOS support Alien Dalvik?

@chemist thanks for the info, that seems promising

When I understood it correctly, Xperia X device should replace Jolla C which was only availiable for a few people. I'd like to know if (and when) a device with fully supported SFOS will be availiable for anyone (especially in Germany). Community device program was closed so fast for Jolla C, its a nightmare so please make it availiable!

From the press release - "Jolla Ltd., the developer of open operating system, Sailfish OS, today announced support for Sony’s Open Devices Program, to provide a leading hardware platform for Sailfish OS licensing customers and the Sailfish community." - Jolla adds support for Sailfish OS on Sony Mobile’s Xperia devices.

My understanding is that the upcoming SFOS 2.1 (currently in EA) will be 64 bit capable.

I wonder if we could buy a license key in the Jolla store that would allow to flash a stock Xperia with SFOS and Jolla apps store access. Just a guess.

@hubat - Does that apply to the tablet version of Sailfish OS too?

@hubat - That would be really awesome, and something I have been demanding for a long time - I want to be the direct owner (well technically a licensee) of the OS on my mobile.

Despite the cynical tone of the poster, I am surprised at the number of downvotes for this post. He / she asks some valid questions and none of us needs to be such a brand fanatic to Jolla that we get upset by the posters cynicism ... we need to be supportive here to everyone, regardless of their temporary feelings towards Jolla ... and we also need to keep Jolla on their toes to not take us for granted, so that they continue to strive hard and excel ...

Agree, but dont mind the fanboys. Given the amount of questions here it would be great if jolla could address them and or add some clerifications on their blog. Maybe a QandA?!?

One more question:

Can the community do something to help with this??

"If you want the official version, you'll still have to wait though. Jolla says it won't be out until late spring/early summer."

https://www.engadget.com/2017/02/27/jolla-sailfish-sony-xperia-phones/

Yes yes yes for this one. Remember: https://together.jolla.com/question/135573/sfos-needs-smaller-phones/

@sifartech

People are not negative or cynic, just want real things not only announces, many people want to buy now a xperia x, but we need some more info like "how and when?".

Anyway, great news for us... thanks to all involved.

I can't believe Sony is doing this ... one argument to buy Sony device, which I avoided in the past.

I hope this year :)

I have Xperia M5, so hoping to get that device on the SFOS list.

Type-C and smaller is always a good thing!

@sifartech: there is no 'tablet version' of Sailfish, it just adapts the layout a bit depending on the screen size/resolution. I think this is the case for all mobile operating systems, though.

Not sure if relevant, but xperia x seems to have a different hw piece for dual sim than intel aquafish. In Xperia one need to choose between 2nd SIM or sd card (they use the same slot), while Aquafish has altogether 3 slots: 2 SIM+ 1 SD

The press release says

the first project is a Sailfish OS powered Xperia X, which is on show at Jolla’s stand at Mobile World Congress 2017 (stand 5H19)

According to the Wikipedia article for the Sony Xperia X there are two different Variants, the F5121 with single SIM and 32GB and the F5122 with 64GB and dual SIM (but I asume one can use either dual SIM or one SIM and SD)

is this "first project" about

a) the F5121

b) the F5122

c) both, the F5121 and the F5122

...maybe someone at MWC is able to check what Jolla is showing on the stand?

Does anybody know, if the Xperia X series is designed "waterproof"? I couldn't find anything about that. If not, maybe I'd rather be more curious to have support for the Xperia Z5 Compact with SFOS...

Yeah. I just found out about that "Open Device Program" for the first time too. It's really nice and with support for SFOS I'll most probably be a very likely "returning" customer (last device from Sony(-Ericsson) was the M600 after owning the P800 and the P910i SE Symbian smartphones before), I took the Nokia road afterwards and came to the N9 that led me to Jolla ;-)

Julian Chokkattu tweeted from the Sailfish OS Press Event and later released a small article and video about Jolla. While not mentioned in the tweets, in the video at about 4:00 to 4:30 he talks about the phone (Xperia X) getting support for running Android apps. He might have that from the press event.

Allthough it might sound cynical: some genius mind had some idea about this more then three years ago: https://together.jolla.com/question/6522/harbourstore-support-for-paid-applications/ with more users and maybe Sony even advertising a SFOS device, such a feature could bring Jolla quite some money, wouldn't it?

Why do we have to wait? I want it now. Even if it doesn't work and just barely starts. How about this: We buy the hardware from someone else and buy a Sailfish license from Jolla. I'm even prepared to pay for the coming updates.

@naytsyrhc My first two mobile phones were Ericsson, so it looks like I will be a returning customer too.

1. Buy now, flash later?
2. Buy pre- flashed later?

shutupandtakemymoneyfry.gif

soon (tm) :-)

+1....mine were the T28 and the T68 :-)

As being one of the many who missed the last community device and as I am really looking for a new one... If Jolla will ship a certain amount of these SFOS-preinstalled Xperia phones...

Will it be available in sufficient numbers?

I'm thinking of a number that _at least_ matches the sold Jolla 1 devices as this news might as well pull in users who have until now not been interested in Sailfish OS. It would be a shame to see people who really want to buy an up-to-date device with Sailfish on it being fed up because it's not available...

Correct answer is c) JollaFr twitter feed has a picture that unclearly says "3GB RAM / 32GB or 64GB Flash"

Is Sony really involved or do Jolla only utilize the device program?

I think this is a very valid question. The press release does not really answer that question. In fact reading it again, it seems that while Sony will welcome the attention to their program, they are not really involved in any significant way. If that is correct then the prospect of being able to buy a device with Sailfish pre-loaded is smaller. More likely we will have to source a device and flash it.

Despite this, it is good news. Also the prospect in other markets (Latin America/Russia) is good. I guess it is more difficult getting a foothold in the door in the North American/European market.

My guess is alternative one. The producer doesn't have to negotiate with Google that way.

There is Xperia Z4 Tablet on the Open Devices list. Fingers crossed!

Got the idea to ask after reading the blog of MWC 2017. So, if Sony would produce also SFOS smart watchs, so was that smart watch work also with earlier Jolla C (at least) plus Jolla 1, perhaps? If alll fit thus Sony could sell even more smart watches than Sony SFOS smart phones itself!

The demonstration at the MWC booth is having a working camera, although not 100% ready yet.

So it might be both models. It would make sense to have Dual-SIM, the Jolla C (and Intex Aqua Fish) also have it, and Dual-SIM is highly popular in some BRICS countrys.

And how would anyone develop for this feature, if there the development community device would not support this feature?

I imagine that with a big constructor behind the availability will be much better. The goal for Sony is to sell as many units as possible, which is very different from what happened with Jolla HW.

To quote this article: https://www.mobileworldlive.com/featured-content/top-three/jolla-aims-for-profitable-2017/

"The aim is to make Sailfish available for “practically all” Xperia handsets. The target is to make a first release available by the end of Q2 2017."

I like how "practically all" sounds, but can we make something to help? I am ready to leave the second part of my tablet refund in the hands of Jolla and send some more cash their way just to get an official SFOS with Android apps support for compact Sony devices faster. Maybe ther should try to crowdfund it?

As far as I have been able to gather: No, only the X performance (I believe it's called) is waterproof.

if you want android support-why not get an android phone? i dont stick with sailfish for years if i dont want native apps. paid apps, improved store, getting more attractive for app developers. and with the new cooperations this is probably better to achieve than ever.

@kaktux I hear that question over and over again. The answer to that is quite simple and I'll repeat it again (of course it's only my humble opinion, but maybe some others share that): I do not really need android apps, that's why I choose SFOS. Everything is there I need for my daily (work) life. Of course there are some drawbacks compared to android/ios and maybe even windows phone, but in many fields SFOS is superior to those OS's - at least for me. I love SFOS for the "freedom" and the possibility to make it truly "yours". However: unfortunately there are some apps out there, that will probably never see light on SFOS due to lack of market share. An app to buy mobile ticket from public transport in my city for example. Or an app to see your rentals from public library. For those needs, I am glad to have support for android apps. That's why. Simple, isn't it?

@kaktux the rest of your argument holds of course. More native apps, paid app support, ... All that is desperately needed and the more devices with SFOS will become available, the better the marketshare, the higher the possibilty to get native apps for those needs I told about before. And I agree, the chances just got much much better with the new partners.

I should add to the perfect point of @naytsyrhc, the apps released by your phone carrier, that allow you to see your data usage, credit, billings, etc. Those are very unlikely to be released for sailfish, so Android support is needed on SFOS.

Not the Android support story again, please. SFOS without Android support simply cannot exist. You can't fool yourself into believing that app developers will ever support SFOS, not even can you force people to give up using Android apps because most of the functions you can do with an Android phone cannot be done with SFOS. Those who are living without Android support is because they force themselves not to use Android app functions, and/or make a very basic use of the phone. Just to name something, no free music streaming on SFOS (Spotify, Deezer and the like). No social navigation (Waze). No Whatsapp (unless you want your account blocked). These are functions that people do use. You cannot think that a bunch of nerds can support an ecosystem.

+1 No android Telegram, too. It will take time until Sailorgram etc could replace the use of the android Telegram. Yes, there are no hope with a native Whatsapp as we learned from Mitakuuluu etc.

@Giacomo Di Giacomo I didn't start that story and I agree with you (as you might have read from my comments). But some thoughts: 1st: There is a native spotify client available if you have a spotify premium account. 2nd: Whatsapp could easily port an existend native QT client to SFOS as there has been one for Blackberry (AFAIK they paid for it). So in many cases it's just a matter of marketshare/money. 3rd: Sony could add that if they really go the SFOS path. So it's not totally out of nothing to have SFOS without android support someday. 4th: Windows phone users or iOS users are happy without android support too.

@kaktux I need some apps to be able to communicate with friends, colleagues and partners. Whatsapp Skype Facebook Messenger Slack Instagram Telegram Viber

I hate fragmentation of the IM/social market and the fact that Meego approach with various apps integrated into the phone's messaging app never took hold, but the truth is, different people use different apps to communicate. Of the list I gave, only Slack and Telegram have native SFOS apps, but you can't force everyone use them.

I also need some utility apps. To hail taxi. To access local maps and navigation apps. To get a subway map etc.

I am all for native SFOS apps, and when I can, I install native instead of Android. But we can't live without Android support. I use Jolla as my main device, and I want to be able to continue doing this.

To me it looks like they have agreed on something and it looks like Sony has some commitment to Jolla especially regarding licensing, which in tern means some level of quality assurance and compatibility.

@naytsyrhc Of course I agree with you.

Maybe a monthly fee for the Jolla account that includes updates? In the end, it must be the end users that pay for the services. We can't expect another company to pay for us. Not even if it's a big one. Or if the license is sold together with the device.

It can't be a monthly fee as it is one time no change product. It is not a service. For support it could be also a 1-2-3y subscription. You don't have to invent the wheel. And the Nokia guys know how the business works.

What? One shot? Don't you expect updates? I do.

Nokia? This is about Sony + Jolla. Nokia is no longer a phone provider.

@1chb Many people at Jolla are former Nokia people. That's what @deloptes probably referred to.

Thank you naytsyrhc! I think 1chb either does not read full sentences or can not understand their meaning. FYI: I am using my Nokia N9 for couple of years without update now. No issues! If there are issues, why should I pay someone for fixing them when I already payed a license and support fee for this product? This is also one of the reasons why you can't buy Sailfish phone in Europe (IMO) - who is going to take the responsibility and pay for it? If someone will sell me a piece of hardware with software on top and will demand monthly subscription fee for the software, I would rather choose a different software or both.

@deloptes Your last sentence is quite funny. I don't know how old you are, but if you are a bit older (say 40 and above), maybe you remember the time when some guy (let's call him "Bill") did exactly that. His "counterpart" (let's call him "Steve") did not do so. He sold the hardware as it was "normal" these days. The software was just delivered with hardware. You may know what happend in the first place. "Bill" made Billions and "Steve" almost got bankrupted. But then there was a time "Steve" had a great idea and he began to sell new pieces of hardware again (software delivered with it) and this time he succeeded. He succeeded in a way, that nowadays most people think they can get software for free or for a one time fee. Long story short: I think both models are valid. Depends on circumstances. I agree with you, that it is nice to buy a phone and use it for as long as it lasts and that you should not pay a monthly fee for it. But I'd be willing to pay a fee for e.g. continued support and updates for a good android support. Or maybe not a monthly fee, but pay for updates. That would probably be the best of both models.

I think that the revenue from the device for the community program is not the most important aspect for Jolla.

I think that the Jolla business model stands on two feets. And it is only as strong as the weaker one. It couldn't stand on one and would simply fall (which Jolla did already and luckily recovered).

One foot is the community of enthusiasts. It forms the ecosystem without no new platform has any chance to get recognised and become successful. The community provides feedback, applications and last but not least advertises the platform. Each member of the community is a multiplier to communicate the message about the platform's greatness to the 'ignorant' outer world. Without the community there would be no news about and no use in the platform at all.

The other foot is the mass market as addressed with the licensing with customers like Intex, Jala, inox, turing and others. This is about developing a sustainable cash flow.

Without the licensing model, the platform cannot exist for long (as we have seen 2015/16). The revenue that can be achieved through the important but small-in-number community is near to irrelevant compared of the prospect of success in the BRICS mass market.

But without the community the product cannot flourish. This is because the end customers of the licensing model won't communicate their needs, expectations, frustrations, enjoyment to Jolla. If they don't like something, they will simply turn away and tell everyone around them to do the same. And Jolla wouldn't be able to do anything about it as Jolla wouldn't know how to 'navigate' the Sailfish into the bright future as it would not have directions from their user base.

To add to the above:

If Jolla would address the community by selling a license that allows one to flash a stock Xperia, then that license would only be bought by technically savvy people who are comfortable doing so and also are enthusiastic about the platform.

This way the Xperia program would not be concurrent to any mass user license agreement, because it would automatically effectively only ever be used by real community members. The revenue from those wouldn't really matter as the numbers would and should be small. Jolla could happily even go for a pay-what-you-like model. This would give those of us who would like to support Jolla also in terms of currency a chance to do so without depriving the less wealthy but enthusiastic ones among us.

With these thoughts I believe it is pretty moot to have a heated debate about one-off payments versus monthly or yearly subscription fees.

If you think about it: How many community members would buy and flash a Xperia if the license would be ccost free? 5,000? 15,000? Let's say 25,000 (which I think is an extremely optimistic number).

If the license fee would be, let's say 20 Euros (one-off per device), how many of those unrealistically optimistic 25,000 would still do it? 15,000 maybe? that would bring a revenue of 300,000 Euros. Peanuts! That would not even pay the bill for the second part of the refund! But Jolla would exclude 10,000 valuable multipliers.

Now if the license fee would be 50 Euros. I would image that would leave about 5,000 enthusiasts in the pool while only raising 250,000 Euros revenue.

So please, dear community, forget about us being important to Jolla in terms of financially contributing to the platform. We simply can't. We count in other ways. And Jolla obviously appreciates us enough to have opened the door to this very exiting community device.

I can't wait to having it. Whatever it takes, whatever it costs. But I don't expect a prohibitive license fee for the above reasons.

Cheers.

Wait. Your forget about one thing: you are already able to put SFOS on a multiple of devices. Let it be the fairphone, HTC One, Nexus 5, to name a few. That's no problem. But all those ports lack Android support and other services Jolla has to pay licenses for. I think discussion about that license fee is only there, because all those "geeks" would be happy to pay that fee in order to get the full experience with their ports. Someone has to pay those licenses. And if the Xperias will be bought with full SFOS support, some part of the costs will cover those fees. If not, Jolla has to pay for it and if Jolla has to pay 300.000 EUR for the community to have that for free, it's not peanuts anymore.

@deloptes I guess you don't have a Sailfish device, or at least not for long. I myself has got a lot of updates for my more than three year old Jolla 1. The early releases lacked a lot of important features, e.g. 4g and MMS. I also have an N9, and I remembered it got only a few, maybe just one, update.

With a monthly fee, the initial cost for the OS license could be lower and it would be easier for Jolla to finance their operation with a continuing input flow of money. If the fee is connected to the Jolla account, you only pay as long as you want the updates.

The "Nokia guys" didn't do so well in the past. From #1 to almost nothing in a few years. Hope the Jolla guys can do the opposite, or at least to pass Microsoft before they give up. But still no breakthrough yet.

@naytsrhc You are right, I didn't thought about the fact that Jolla has actual costs coming with every license. So the pay-what you like approach could actually only be a pay-x-or-as-much-more-as-you-like approach.

But my point was, that the revenue cannot be the motivating factor for Jolla going all the length with the Xperia community program. It is really an appreciation of the important role that we, the community members play in their success story.

I feel honoured and ask you and all the others to do the same.

Cheers.

@1chb I do not want to argue or insult you in any way. Just do some courses in logic and argumentation. I think it will be beneficial. It is stupid to make guesses, because probability of being right is ~0. I fully agree with the way hubat argues. I also agree that if I could pay for using Dalvik on a community port, would help us get a decent usable hardware with SFOS. Without Dalvik it's just a toy that can make phone calls. This is my personal opinion. @naytsyrhc My understanding of the story about "Bill" and "Steve" is a bit different. I am not sure if you have owned Mac back then. Same level of usability as the counterpart but 2-3x more expensive and since then "Bill" owns a big portion of shares from "Steve". But thank you for sharing your opinion.

@deloptes for sure my presentation of the story was a simplification. But the point still holds, that Microsoft introduced paying for software which was not normal those days and that Apple more or less reintroduced bundling the software for free with sold hardware.

yes, agreed, but IMO it was not about bundling or not. In the letter case it was far more expensive. I recall 2000 USD compared to 1000. Today I think it should be bundled to the hardware, because the average person will not understand the point anyway. I am curious how Jolla will solve this quest with Sony, or how it was solved.

If I where to describe the main difference between Bill and Steve then I would point out that Bill's customers where the companies that licensed his QDOS to put on all their devices while Steve's customers have always been the end users. Hence Bill's business intelligence mainly went into controlling the market so that no customer could ever consider any other companies offerings regardless how crappy is OSes were - while Steve was always only concerned about the user experience as he wanted to create the most desirable system due to the adorable design and intuitive workflows which made his system to be simply the best which allowed him to ask for ridiculous prices as they represented the higher productivity you could achieve using them.

And that's what I find so attractive about Jolla's business model: they want to finance their enterprise by licensing the OS to big companies (Bill's way). This comes with the risk of loosing grip with the end users. But not so much for Jolla as they appreciate and honour their enthusiastic community and cultivate their communication with us. This is actually Steve++ as frankly Steve has never bothered asking the users if they disagree or agree with his views of what an end user would actually want.

I believe this can work!

@deloptes@naytsyrhc - You are both half right. Yes, the apple devices were expensive. But it wasn't because they were just selling the hardware for a premium - they were also charging an inclusive price for the software. Compare the price of the hardware of, say a Mac Mini, with an equivalent premium Windows based desktop PC offered by HP or Dell and you will find that the price of the hardware + OS + Office suite is just about the same. Apple were not giving you the OS and office suite for free - they charge you a one time fee which is included in the total price. And that's what Microsoft is now trying to do with the Surface series. Windows is not free in it. You are paying for it. Same with mobile phones. The OS is not free, you are paying for it in some way (in the case of android, Google makes money from the Google services bundled in an Android phone, and can thus, gives away the OS for "free").

@sifartech You are making a very good point in mentioning the yet again different business model of Google/Alphabet. Their customers are neither the end users nor the big companies selling their devices with the android OS. Their customers are actually the companies that make use of their advertising programs while the end user (or googles knowledge about each and every end user) is actually the product.

THAT is really the reason why I am so enthusiastic about SFOS regardless of how bumpy the road might be at times: that advertisement is not and hopefully will never be part of Jolla's business model!!!!

Nothing is for free and I agree with you both that the model using best of "Bill"s and "Steve"s is surely worth following. I don't mind paying one time license fee, which we do anyway one way or the other as you highlight. I still think updates should be free of charge, but there could be one time fee as well for upgrade. I am just curious how it would work. What if one would first use Android and then switch to SFOS on the same device. What would OEM do? I don't know what kind of contracts OEMs have to OS suppliers, but it is a valid wuestion

@deloptes I'm afraid you do insult me. What's wrong with my logic? I just draw the conclusion that you haven't experienced the many updates from Jolla that took the Jolla 1 from barely usable to great. I appreciate the hard work they have put into the product a lot. And they still deliver after so many backfires. Sorry if I was wrong about you as a newcomer to Sailfish. It is nothing wrong about being a newcomer. We need more users to be viable. Maybe my suggestion is not realistic. I don't know how many are willing to pay and how much for the updates. But I think it is reasonable to pay more for more updates and that requires some kind of regular payment.

Actually your "logic" is insulting me as an intelligent human being. If you need a discussion, we can take it off this forum. newcomer ... is it relevant? I don't think we should pay for updates. Updates are vital to a company if it wants to succeed. Money is made by sales and new customers. Take some introduction in economics, you'll probably understand. If you noticed I mentioned I agree paying for upgrades, but not for updates. But even this would not be necessary if you bundle hardware with software as it was explained above. All it counts are the numbers sold. The phase Jolla is now is critical for a company, but I hope they will make it trough and in couple of years we'll enjoy alternative to android and ios.

@deloptes can you please abstain from any further ad-hominem attacks.

An annual fee is just too hard to administer. Too much work for Jolla and certainly too much of an inconvenience to the user, given the small amount we would be talking about.

What about this scheme: The license is for free if you agree to participate in the Early Access program for at least let's say 18 months. If you opt for only stable updates you pay a one-off fee per device that at least covers Jolla's actual 3rd party costs.

This way the community members would be encouraged to do actual testing on a wider scale and help Jolla reducing their costs on in-house testing and at the same time advance the quality of the stable build that finally hits the mass market (which tends to not forgive glitches easily). Instead of paying for the updates we would reduce the costs of testing and the risk of distributing premature updates.

Hi hubat, sorry for the persistence with 1chb.

Your suggestion sounds fair and reasonable. Here my thoughts on that

Early Access case:

My only problem is that I would have to buy a second sim for testing as I need a reliable business phone or subscribe my wife to the Early Access program. But all is doable and additional costs would be between 0-120€/y which sounds doable as well. 18 months would mean max 180,-. Costs I would spend for second sim + extra cost for hardware (~200,-)

Business phone case:

I see two major issues with SFOS ATM, as I mentioned in another discussion 1. the problems with the phone app (it stops working so neither in nor out calls possible) - might be only Intex related - not sure 2. the lack of SyncML support, which prevents sync of minimum of PIM data, which was also discussed in another thread

In summary I would spend about 200,- for hardware and <200 for license if those issues are solved and I would not need any further update/upgrade. I don't think I am the only one with this mind setup

@deloptes I don't know about your mind setup but I cannot follow your thoughts and I have lost interest in trying deciphering them. I am off.

@hubat - Yeah, I support Jolla and Sailfish as I don't want to be a 'product' for Google / Apple / Microsoft. As for the pricing of Sailfish OS, I don't think there needs to be so much confusion. Sailfish OS already has the official and community edition. The community edition is already FREE for those who don't want to pay, and it should remain as such. The official edition should be sold as software has always been sold - one time fee + free updates (bug fixes and security only) till 'end of life'. That way, the user can decide if the new version of Sailfish OS is really worth paying and updating for, and thus provide Jolla an incentive to actually continue to be 'unlike' and innovate.

Do we know when we can get the image for the Sony Xperia phones? Wanna give my wife a new phone soon, but if it's 2018 i'll wait for that.

They said they aim to release it by end of Q2 2017...

@cg that sounds great! Did you hear what Android version that would be supported? will it be 4.4 like Jolla C/Aquafish, or could it even be higher version?

@cg I would say also on my Jolla C the camera is "working, but not 100% ready yet". The focus is horrible and they still haven't fix that annoying clicking sound.

two questions to the Jolla Dev Team:

1. will SFOS on Sony X support a Compass sensor? (not supported on Intex Aquafish or Turing Dark Wyvern)
2. will USB C be supported or an alternative to a lightening type connector Apple employs? (and which in some ways i like a lot better since its still smaller than thdle USB C).
3. Along the lines of Dave999 question will hardware/software support be streamlined? Currently navigating two companies HW and SW is a pain when compared to Apple service which is more integrated.

When I read the press release, I have the feeling that Jolla is doing all the work in order to have prototypes running on a standard largely deployed platform. I can imagine that the final goal is to sale Sailfish on Sony for some large accounts like some Russian administration who do no want Android. I'm not sure standard consummers are targeted by this announcement.

1. The compass of Jolla 1 is supported. Jolla C lacks a magnetic sensor. The Xperia X does have a sensor.

2. USB-C has more possibilities than microUSB so it will be harder to implement.

3. My guess is that there will be no factory flashed units. The Xperia X is supposed to be a community device (with possibly some assembly required). Google pricecuts could be in jeopardy for the manufacturer otherwise...

So should we all buy Sony phones in readiness, or wait for more confirmation ?? My J1 needs to be retired

+1 thank you for explaining simply my mindset

I have now arranged for a bamboo gold coloured Xperia X to be sent to me. I will not be the first owner but it will good enough for me.

Now I can only wait.

..and the big news was the Chinese Sailfish Consortium.

Will Jolla Sony partnership add the SFOS flashable service files to the Sony Flashing Tool?

https://developer.sonymobile.com/open-devices/flash-tool/use-the-flash-tool-for-xperia-devices/

Who is going to be responsible for warranty and post warranty repairs of Xperia phones with SailfishOS in Europe??? Sony Mobile or Jolla?

I really hope installing SailfishOS will not void phone's warranty!

From https://developer.sonymobile.com/unlockbootloader/

"If you unlock the boot loader, you may void the warranty of your device and/or any warranty from your operator. See your device’s warranty statement for details."

You'll need to do that in order to install SailfishOS. So it depends on the device.

There will be devices sold with SFOS already on it, so Sony will be your point of warranty.

@chemist - Who says Sony will sell devices with SFOS on them? The press release says that Jolla will be creating SFOS images for Xperia devices that take part in the Sony Open Devices programme. The images seem to be endorsed by Sony. So this means that you buy an Xperia with Android on it, unlock the boot loader and install the SFOS image, overwriting Android. At the unlock stage you may or may not void the warranty depending on the device.

That is what I thought at first too, and then I read articles from people talking to Sailors at MWC from all kinds of sources that they want to create a hassle free experience, so maybe it is just me but that sounds like in the beginning there might be some flashing and unlocking to be done but the goal is to ship Xperias with SFOS, or at least as simple as installing an app (that was Carsten's dream about how porting and installing SFOS on devices should be)

The Jolla C is a rebranded Intex device. Will the next community device also be rebranded (as Jolla X, perhaps)? Will it have cosmetic changes to differentiate it from the Sony phone?

It is not just rebranded, it is also other hardware than the original Intex device. Another press quote "Sony fans have a lot to gain and nothing to lose, as they will be able to test both Android and Sailfish OS on their devices." and headlines do read "bring to Xperia" not Sony produces rebranded devices for Jolla.

@ApB I don't see a single answer in today's meeting minutes, except if you consider that "will be announced when we know" is an answer.

It is quite disappointing that we can not get dual sim + SD with Xperia X. This is what I learned from the log of yesterdays meeting. It seems that dual sim can not be supported. Perhaps Jolla could raise this question later with Sony. I was hoping I could get one device to handle my business and private sim cards with decent storage (sd card). Another issue is the price - today in Austria you can get Xperia X for about 330€ . For what - for nice pictures? So I have to choose between Intex AquaFish ~ 150-200€ and Xperia X 330€. I think for business and private use the first one scores better because of the dual sim, but it has poor camera/picture quality. It is still suboptimal in terms of choice. Please focus on dual sim hardware that can be bought in Europe. I don't think I am alone with this. Thanks

1) Will Sailfish support for Xperia means that also Sony Xperia tablets will have Sailfish OS option? That would be just great. Can we count on this?

2) Here https://developer.sonymobile.com/open-devices/discontinued-projects/open-smartwatch-project/ is Sony Smatrwatch just awaiting to make it Sailfish Smartwatch of Sony. Can it be used for "Sailfish Smartwatch case study" further continuation?

3) This could be the full set, together: Sailfish smartwatch with Sailfish mobile and Sailfish tablet from Sony. Is this in range of your radar?

Well, those answers are quite disappointing. A lot of things is not decided (will end of Q2 be even possible with current situation?) and no dual sim device (at least at the beginning).

1) was answered in the meeting. 2) probably has the same answer as 1 but i wouldn't count on it since the watch was an exercise and that to a finished product is miles away. 3) see 1 and 2

my dream is z3 compact tablet (lte) or the z4 tablet. The battery life is very good with the SFOS Port from Nokius @z3 tablet compact. hope to see in the future more products from sony with sfos.