Suggestions for the SFOS3 new top menu

somewhere?, where?, space will have to be allocated for time and date, perhaps in between Ambience and the first row of controls?, we are very limited for space.

More to the point, we can still 'peek' when the top menu is open.

Old (SfOS1) peek was so much better in that regard :)

To the where. Maybe top left? I mean the lock icon does not take the whole space from left to right so it can fit there.

Now hold the power button, the space that is occupied by the lock icon is now taken up with Restart and Shutdown icons, so I suppose the time/date could disappear when the Shutdown/Restart menu is called.

I think this is something that will likely be a third party production rather than something being added by Jolla.

Exactly.

Though another idead that came to my mind and is more likely and easier to implement I think is showing the date underneath the clock on normal peeking so it does not involve the top menu anymore.

Nice idea to include a quick search functionality.

What would those mockups look like if the UX was based on gestures instead of buttons?

The problem I have with pure gestures is the following. First we need to understand if the gestures are going to be used system-wise and for what. If it is for quick navigation like it is in Sailfish there is no problem. You just swipe to trigger the wanted screen. Then you have the combination Navigation approach used be Apple - for example to see the opened apps swipe Up and then Hold. Which is one additional step but lets say still manageable. Every other navigation is basically the same as in Salfish. Second you can have the menu(drawer) gestures. To simplify their usage one would probably standardize them so they are the same for every app. But then there is a problem - what if the item/app doesn't have the functionality used by the gesture. Simply do nothing is not an answer because you put strain on the user to memorize what functionality each item/app have or don't have. Third you can have in-app gestures like Spotify(iOS) for example - from the home menu you can swipe Up the Artist-Song-Album information bar and bring up the Player. So the OS provider should manage where, what and how to handle all these situations. Fourth too much of anything is bad for the user. Have only what is needed and nothing more. Simplify 'till there is nothing else to simplify. Less actions will make everything faster to operate and easier to comprehend. Last - use your hardware with maximum efficiency. Sadly not many companies these days make hardware design that is worthy. If you have ever shoot with DSLR you would probably understand. On a DSLR (or mirrorless even better) you have buttons and knobs to quickly change the setting. Compare that with lower class camera. Both systems will have the same functionality but on the lower class system it will take ages to change a setting because you have menu inside a menu inside a menu. The same goes for the new MacbookPro and the TouchBar - the content is different for each app and you need to memorize it!

So you cannot see any advantages with gestures?

So my answer is why make it complicated when you can just Tap it (sorry, that sounded dirty :D). Gestures may be fashionable thing right now but they shouldn't be overused.

In Sailfish OS the norm is gestures. ...and the buttonizing seems to be spreading for no apparent reason. Pressing a button demands a much higher precision than gestures do. ...and that is very important for me, especially in a vehicle context.

Changing from gestures as default to buttons demands increasingly larger displays.

So why mess with something that works just to make it more familiar to those who got used to android?

"Fashionable"... Bah.

I like the idea with the media player, this should go in the top menu. But I disagree with the quick-search, like you said, the top menu is just a quick binary thing, and no search or app-launcher (calc, camera, settings). The apps should stay in the bottom-menu. Also the quick-search could go in the bottom menu, I would suggest: one swipe up - open app menu, a second swipe up: show quick-search and open keyboard (this way you don't have to click in a search field or something, we want a gesture based UI).

I have to agree with rhodos. Using gestures just for the sake doing it differently doesn't make much sense to me. I don't have a problem with having to learn new control patterns if it actually has a benefit but sometimes buttons are simply the better solution. I love the gesture based navigation in SFOS but I came to dislike the pulley-menus. They are slow, unprecise and just not necessary. Most SFOS apps have empty main screens. There rarely the need to save space.

Using buttons is to do something differently in Sailfish OS. The norm is - as stated before - gestures.

Buttons in a pull-down menu is less precise than just the gesture. ...and it forces the user to watch while doing it.

@vattuvarg - Give me an example of what you mean in this context. I am not saying I am right or you are wrong. Perfection doesn't exist and there is always a better(different) solution. I just want to understand. So to explain myself - for me gestures are at most just four more actions UP, DOWN, LEFT, RIGHT in addition to TAP, DOUBLE TAP, LONG PRESS. Just like the DOUBLE TAP the four basic gestures have somewhat limited usage. I am not saying they shouldn't be used just use them efficiently.

@Hangman, I though the same for the quick-seach and it does make sense but again there a few problems. First swipe UP - open the app menu. Second swipe UP - won't you just scroll down the apps. If it is a second swipe from the edge you need to be precise(it's still a better solution though). Second problem is legal one - kinda similar to iOS(just reversed). There are other solutions of course like combination between swipe and a tap/press. But this requires more study.

Related
https://together.jolla.com/question/192071/make-sailfish-ui-consistent-and-easy-again-please/

@vattuvarg, Gestures also needs precision. Like I said above, is it system-gesture like from the edges? Then what are you going to do when you pick up the Sony XA2 Plus which for me is a big phone and you try swipe from the left or right edge. If it's an in-app gesture, again you need to watch where you are swiping. Maybe Sailfish was designed to operate on a smaller screen devices. I am big N9 and iPhone 4/SE fan just because of the size. But sadly they are in the past.

@michel: the empty layouts of many Sailfish applications can't really be blamed on the pulley menus, it would be the same if they had one of those hamburger menus. It's just bad design in general to hide options that shouldn't be hidden. Usually this is just because their programmers didn't study design, but you can always suggest better layouts for their applications (Jolla themselves have changed some useless hidden pulley menus on empty pages in the Settings application to buttons). I do agree with you and @rhodos that you should mix the best of both worlds, gestures and buttons, and not just stick to one or the other because that's the cool (it's been a long time since I heard 'unlike') way to do it. Also, I really don't see the problem in having the quick settings quickly available again. The only difference with Sailfish 2.0 is that you need one less swipe, so it's quicker, and the toggles are all still toggles. In fact, if you long-press them, you get even more options, in a proper Sailfish swipe menu way, which would be a box with a bunch of buttons on Android or iOS. Can't complain.

@rhodos - There is another aspect of gestures, not just the direction. Where does the gesture start? In Sailfish OS the area for the gesture starting points is quite large. Sometimes it is the edge of the display, other times most of the display can be used.

Sailfish 1.X had cover actions that were activated with gestures. It was possible to place the fingertip on any part of the app cover and then drag left or right. Sailfish 2.X replaced that with two tiny buttons at the lower part of the cover.

As for larger phones... I can't fit anything larger than a Xperia X in my leg pockets. The increase in size could continue for a while while reducing the edges around the display. The notch to removed even more of the top edge. The latest step was to change the aspect ratio of the display. The limitation is always the size of the hand. The quest for even larger phones are now forcing people to fit extra handles to the back of their devices.

An increasing number of buttons make our phones grow larger because we don't want to make the buttons smaller. ...so when you suggest that buttons should be the default you are also advocating larger displays.

Onscreen keyboards used to be buttons but then we added the possibility to paint the words. With that tech there was a chance for smaller devices because the buttons didn't set the limitation.

So Sailfish OS was seesawing between buttons and gestures but now loud voices are calling for change. Heavy bottoms (both corporate and community) are placed on the button side, demanding even more buttons because "everyone else does it that way". That doesn't bode well for doing things well. The difference is philosophical, I guess. A bit like shifting gears when driving. Some prefer choosing the driving mode on a display and then letting a computer control the automatic transmission. Others prefer to grip the end of a manual gearstick and be the driving mode themselves.

Sailfish OS used to be the last "manual" alternative...

@nthn I guess bad app design is partially to blame but the pulley is a 'unique' feature of SFOS and thus gets used more often than not. I personally don't see any point in it. I won't use my phone without looking and I bet most other people don't do it often either. It will never be consistently used because it doesn't work with scrollable content (only app that tried was the old SFOS1 gallery). And since you mentioned the long-press context menus, they could replace the pulleys everywere.

Does the top menu allow for plugins? If so, we could integrate quickbar into it, and that would pretty much cover the apps search, plus adding in recently used /favs.

@vattuvarg, I am not a Sailfish user so I feel a bit uncomfortable giving suggestions to you, the actual users. You are using the OS every day and you know what you want. But I am someone who is looking at Sailfish with hope. UI is not my biggest problem, I prioritize stability. But good design should be first and foremost understandable. I covered the start point of a gesture in my first answer. And the Second point of my first answer is about the Sailfish 1.x Cover Actions (sorry, didn’t use the correct lingo). Each Cover have different Actions and neither the Actions are standardized(because Apps are different), nor there are visual aids telling you what the gesture-based Actions are doing(if there are any). So you need to memorize the particular App Cover Action. And here more than everywhere else you need precision to operate them. So it’s a nice gimmick but complex to comprehend and operate. Knowing this I prefer the simplicity of 2.x. And speaking about the simplicity of “manual gear shifts” there is nothing simpler and more elegant and satisfying than a toggle (especially if it’s a hardware one). Everyone has an opinion and it’s useless for me to try change it. Well it’s not useless - hopefully I can contribute with something. But I prefer(at the moment) the design of something like iOS, where every design decision and action is simple and well-though-out. But I will give it to the Jolla team and every ex-Nokia employee related to the current state of their design. They were way ahead with gesture-operated UI and even with minimalistic Flat Design. They are/were truly revolutionary. I agree with you that the number of buttons is increasing(in some areas) but just because users think they need them all. And the same apply to gestures - you don’t always need them. So restrictions are not always bad.

@vattuvarg, Also in the past there were some cool hardware gimmicks to enhance the software like the Galaxy Air Gestures which used the proximity sensor. Actually I have the memory of using this way back on third-party Viewer App for Symbian S60 which used the front camera. And one could possibly use something like a wheel-gesture similar to the iPod, for example when the screen is off. And there is the Apple haptic feedback thingy. A pure screen is just 2D canvas with fixed dimensions. But personally I would sacrifice features for simplicity and stability. And the hardest part in any design(even software...especially software) is to make things simple.

@rhodos - It isn't the users that decide the amount of buttons, not even regarding Sailfish OS with the strong TJC community. The decision is made for us by Jolla.

An example... There is a toggle for aeroplane mode but an ambiance for quiet mode.

Another example: There is a community port for Xperia X compact (4.6"). A fairly good one. It never got the official blessing. ...but larger phones like the Xperia XA2 plus (6.0") and Xperia XA2 ultra (6.0") do.

The multitasking of Sailfish OS allows the user to run multiple apps side by side instead of just switching from one to the other. That allows me to have a dashboard-like setup of apps when I'm driving (Helm2). Each app is simple enough but the combination is just wonderful. There's not even a need to use a special vehicle mode as the UI itself is so easy to use when driving.

...and gestures are better for me in the morning as I turn the alarm off. Precision is something I lack at that time of the day...

@rhodos - By the way, I like the mockups you've done. I was just curious about the changes you would apply if you tried a different angle - gestures.

@vattuvarg, To close the case - I never said gestures are bad but they need to be intuitive and not put strain on the user. You might like them because they give more functionality but there are people which prefer simplicity over features.

On the ambience I see two paths - to have deeper system integration or to be just themes(in which case if it's up to me I will just reduce them to light/dark mode, put them in settings, never touch them again and make my life easier).

The screen sizes are probably marketing decision. If Jolla want to survive and be an actual player they need to steal customers from Apple and Google.

I already said I like the 2.x Covers where you have just 1 Action and a Tap. In 1.x you had Left and Right gestures and you had to memorize what they do because there weren't any visual aids. Just too much stuff going on. Again, yes it might be easier for while you drive(which is up to you if this is safe) but other people find it overcomplicated. I see you are from Sweden so let me give you another example. Volvo is one of my favourite carmakers. But have you compared the interior controls between early-to-mid 2000s models and after 2014. In the old ones you have just a few BIG buttons that do just ONE thing and required just one look to find them. No additional look to operate them. On the newer ones you have touchscreen and each 'virtual' button does 1000s of things because content changes. So you have one look to locate what you want (if it's not hidden in a menu) and then for every following operation you look again to make sure it's the right one. I know it's not fair to compare 'virtual' buttons with physical ones but I guess you can get point.

As for the alarm this is not Sailfish exclusive.

I feel like we are repeating ourselves. We have different likings and that's normal. There is not a universal answer. As of yet. Probably that is why me and you are commenting here and not in a iOS or Android forum.

the problem with buttons is that you need to look at the screen to click them precisely, the second problem is that putting any usefull things in the top side of the screen is making a phone usage problematic especially in the big screen era where you just can't access top of the screen without either second hand or switching the phone handle. So gestures are way better for this type of job. Also it's not only left, right, top, bottom, it can be also bottom to left, bottom to right, top to left, etc.

@lolek, I understand this, but it's not much different with gestures since you have to look where you swipe.

And on the issue of more gestures you can swipe the letter 'W' if you want - it's still a gesture but it's adding unnecessary complexity.

And you need to know(memorize) what that particular swipe/gesture do where and when it can do it.

Buttons/Toggles/Inputs are more or less self-explanatory.

Yes, better gestures and a shut down button under lock screen, I agree!

Perhaps the close gesture is alright from both corners (if you hold the phone in your right hand ?), but the 'close swipe' area is just too narrow ?

Yes, exactly, they are too narrow so I usually accidentally pull down the top menu instead of closing the app... that is why I think this idea would be a good solution.

How about 33% - 33% - 33% ? Now it seems to be something like 25% - 50% - 25%.

In my opinion 50-50 is better, hard to mix them, you use right side or left side as you need. Easier, don't need to focus too much, in some cases simple is better.

@Nova no problem at all.

I like the idea of the pause and think it should be used. Either for the top menu as above or for the application pulley menu

@Mohjive I agree. It sounds complicated when the gesture is being described, but when actually doing it, it's easy and feels natural.

The narrow manu was in SfOS2 as well iirc, and was bad back then as well. They should have fixed it for SfOS3 imo.

Great idea for a quick action (now called shortcut?).

That's why I suggested it to be configurable. After using it for a while I'm not sure anymore if it is better on top or on bottom.