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12

XA2: Looking for arguments for sticking with Sailfish OS

asked 2019-03-02 23:21:59 +0300

Jonathan gravatar image

updated 2019-03-03 15:43:46 +0300

Dear all,

I wanted to get a google-free Smartphone with Long Term Support.

This is what I did: Bought a refurbed XA2, payed € 29,99 to Jolla Ltd. and installed Sailfish 3.

This is what I got:

  • Opened the browser, started a search, was welcomed by a Google Logo ... ?!?!? ... After a research I learned, that there is an app named "Storeman" (not supported by Jolla, not preinstalled) where I can add a repository of a user called "coderus" (not affiliated with Jolla) which installs a few more search engines ... Wow, this is tough. [Edit: I wasn't clear at this point. Sure I do know where to find settings for search engines. My concern was the limited choice of alternatives like Bing & Co. I'm preferring qwant.com)

  • When being called or when starting a call the screen gets blank and I'm not able to switch it on until the call is ended. Wow ... I thought calling is sort of a basic function which should work without hassles when paying for a smartphone OS which is almost solely build for the model I bought.

  • When returning home from outside the Wifi is not re-connecting. I have to switch wifi off an on again. This is not acceptable ... and once again sort of a basic function.

  • When opening the calendar half of the screen is cluttered with numbers and there is no way to change this "month view". Other calendar apps seems to be non-existent.

  • App navigation is sometimes weird. For example, when a video is opened by an app it's pretty hard to go back to the app - since you will be navigated to the gallery(!) which you have to exit, go back to the home screen and start the first app again.

  • The "pull gestures" ("pull down to have more options") seems to be a clever way of hiding menu buttons, but I found it rather fiddling to move my fingers exactly in the right distance to highlight the correct item. Nearly every time I'm thinking: "Couldn't there be some buttons to click on? Would be so easy ...")

  • for the advertised Android Layer I'm asked to use "aptoide" - a store where I will get unauthorized copies of outdated APKs uploaded by unknown people not affiliated with the owners of the apps. However, installing F-Droid was easy.

  • The only Android app I'm really in the need of - Wire from wire.com - keeps crashing after startup. No workaround found, therefore unusable.

  • BLE (Bluetooth Low Energy) is not working. What a pity, I would love to connect a Mi-Band 3. Well I could buy an old Pebble time, stick with Bluetooth, an use Rockpool. But I'm not sure if this is what I want.

Ok, folks, now here comes my question:

I really do like Sailfish OS as an google free alternative to mainstream, and I do like this community. But there are so many deal-breaker (see above) that it's pretty hard to keep lovin' u ...

Now there is Lineage OS 16 out and you know what: Our beloved Sony Xperia XA2 is officially supported from start on.

I would love to stick with Sailfish but I need arguments which weights more than the deal-breaker from above.

One argument could be: "Listen, Jonathan, if you really want Long Term Support, stick with Sailfish for Jolla Ltd will support exactly your phone for the next five years and will provide monthly security patches. You will have to pay for this tremendous support, but I'm assuming this is ok for you. This way you will not be dependent on Googles AOSP and some single developers which only by chance happens to have your phone model and presumably won't support it in two years anymore."

Please, give me this and more arguments. Otherwise I would have to say good bye.

Looking forward,

Jonathan

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Comments

1

Good-bye, may you fare well.

chappi ( 2019-03-05 23:43:45 +0300 )edit

Same story here, XA2 newly bought , had SFOS 3 on it, just buggy and features missing, not complete OS, so I had no choice to go to Lineage 16 with MicroG. Its working fine, ill have to wait for a long time I think before SFOS 3 Mature or get decent features that work without mods etc, especially the basic ones. Long list of bugs , missing features, and 6 months later still not solved.

aQUICK1 ( 2019-05-04 12:24:40 +0300 )edit

maybe xperia would have been an better option then.

not perfect, but no critical bugs too.

pawel ( 2019-05-04 19:52:59 +0300 )edit

12 Answers

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27

answered 2019-03-03 01:25:58 +0300

spag gravatar image

updated 2019-03-03 11:35:50 +0300

Yes, Google is set as default search engine but please be aware that Jolla have not created Sailfish primarily as an refugee support programme for people running away from Google but a phone operating system in it's own right, latest in a long heritage of mobile operating systems (Maemo, MeeGo) gong back more than a decade.

I would also like to clarify that it's not required to buy the Sailfish X Beta version for the XA2 to be able to test most of the functionality of the OS except for Android Support, etc. as there is a free version available.

On my XA2 Plus there seem to be much less issues, so maybe I've just got lucky and this leads to a certain bias towards Sailfish but please decide for yourself:

  • Search engine: Settings » Apps » Browser » Search engine » Bing, Yahoo, Yandex

  • I can call without screen getting blank

  • No issues with reconnecting to wifi whatsoever.

  • The pulley menu is great, especially when using the phone with one hand. Why would someone like to have buttons instead?

  • Calendar: What do you mean by "half of the screen is cluttered with numbers" ? Looks pretty much like a calendar to me when I open it.

  • Android support (Alien Dalvik) is clearly stated as being beta and which apps work and do not not work is sadly more hit-and-miss at the moment.

  • BLE works just fine for me (Amazfish + Amazfit BIP)

  • Android-Store: You can install F-Droid, Yalp, etc. so where is the issue with that?

If you're just looking for a Google-free OS I would clearly recommend to stick with some free Android flavor (e.g. LineageOS) and not worry too much about long-term support.

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1

Yes, it's not a refugee program, but it seems Jolla is too weak to take a stand. Even Safari has DDG set as default. I have not seen one single user respecting software product supporting Google. I can blindly suppory SFOS but this search engine thing is beyond me.

addydon ( 2019-03-03 12:59:47 +0300 )edit
2

If I were Jolla I would certainly allow Google but still set DDG as default. I could imagine they set this years ago to Google because everyone seemed to use google.com as their search engine of choice back then and have not looked into this issue since then. But I'm not affiliated with Jolla so so this is just a guess of course.

spag ( 2019-03-03 15:05:39 +0300 )edit
1

Thanks, @spag, for your reply. Interesting wording: "no refugee program". May be right, but what else could be the motivation to unlock and flash a phone? It's a highly technical procedure for the majority of people and none of my friends would do that just to have the experience of an OS which is the "latest in a long heritage of mobile operating systems (Maemo, MeeGo) going back more than a decade". But at least there are some rare people with privacy concerns and looking for alternatives. Sailfish could be one.

Thanks for sharing your experience with BLE. I will continue my research in that.

Calendar: I just like agenda views, do not need the numbers from 1 to 31 eating screen space. But your mileage may vary

Jonathan ( 2019-03-03 15:55:30 +0300 )edit
4

Jolla is targeting corporate customers for a while now and we probably have to call ourselves lucky to get some scraps (Sailfish X) at all.

spag ( 2019-03-03 17:39:44 +0300 )edit

I forgot to mention: BLE probably won't work with Android apps.

spag ( 2019-03-03 17:41:39 +0300 )edit
22

answered 2019-03-03 10:43:48 +0300

ossi1967 gravatar image

I'm sorry to say that probably you chose SailfishOS for the wrong reasons. In spite of what they're trying to tell us, it's a geek OS kept alive by a small group of people. The main reason for me to use it is that it's basically equal to the desktop version of GNU/Linux I use on all my other computers. I know where the config files are, how to influence tracker's behaviour, how to write and run batch files (making me a professional developer from day 1 without even downloading an SDK), ... and so on.

If this isn't important to you because you just don't want to edit config files from the terminal, well, I guess it's not for you. There's really nothing else SailfishOS does better than other systems.

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4

Thanks, @ossi1967. I'm feeling this is the most honest answer.

Jonathan ( 2019-03-03 16:24:00 +0300 )edit
5

Also, I like your honest answer but I need to add here something: I really dislike the graphical user interface of Android up to the latest version of it! SaifishOS is SO MUCH MORE FUN TO USE - regardless of it's pros and cons but this is my major reason... . There are over reasons as well... . With LineageOS (have it on my Xperia XZ Premium) I'm just like any other Android...user, it's useable but no fun. I wish I could change it on this phone (love the camera) but no custom version of SailfishOS available. Porting SailfishOS to it is a challenging approach, see XDA-devel-forum.

Marti Masa K ( 2019-03-03 22:30:40 +0300 )edit
4

@Jonathan, I agree with Ossi1967 here that Sailfish is only a geek / hobbyist choice nowadays. LineageOS and CarbonROM are simply the most effortless options for a user seeking good "googleless" phones. iPhone should not be scoffed at either, as Apple's main business is not to sell your data or adds.

In addition to pure linux mainstream and educating myself point of views I use Sailfish only because I (still) like the user interface more than the Android's, even though Android has a very nice UX these days too.

While I do think that LineageOS does things overall better, and would endorse it to almost anybody over SFOS, I'd also like to point out that if you really want a googleless device, you cannot install much anything that uses Google framework on it. The framework is the most important and most capable tool of what Google has to follow messaging, location, habits etc. on people's devices. Unfortunately losing the framework cuts down the amount of usable apps drastically, as so many of them rely on its presence today. Usually when people go for LineageOS to avoid being spied upon, they are only fooling themselves unless they opt for MicroG (opensource option for Google apps). And having just MicroG on your device does not come without usability problems of its own until the project matures enough.

Manatus ( 2019-03-04 10:11:28 +0300 )edit
7

@ossi1967 - Sailfish OS does one thing better than all competitors. Multitasking.

vattuvarg ( 2019-03-05 17:41:01 +0300 )edit

@Jonathan, in addition to what @spag and @Manatus wrote, if a flavor of LineageOS suits you AND if you want MicroG built in from the start instead of installing Google services etc, this project by the /e/ foundation may be of interest. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//e/_(operating_system) and https://e.foundation.

In addition to avoiding Google services they aim to build replacement versions of the stock Google apps and provide email and cloud services of their own instead of the Google ones.

Its early days and clearly very ambitious, but they seem to have nightly builds, but no official maintainer, for the Xperia XA2.

Not sure what to make of it myself, but it might be another option.

Ron3KL ( 2019-04-10 10:37:02 +0300 )edit
13

answered 2019-03-03 00:27:52 +0300

Levone1 gravatar image

updated 2019-03-03 00:36:37 +0300

If you want Google-free, how does Lineage even get a consideration?

I think some of what you wrote is real bugs that will be worked on over time, and some is just a matter of getting used to it or figuring it out, (for example, you can set different search engines in Settings). I used Android exclusively going back to 2010, (except for a couple of years of keeping WebOS phones on the side, hoping it would become something), and when I found Sailfish about a year ago, I realized that I found something better. There's bugs and there's a way to go, but it's in current development. Just saying "I don't need Google, I can quit any time I want", doesn't mean you're not addicted. If a bad looking calendar app makes you go running back, it reveals the truth. Seems like most people here who complain about Sailfish have the same base problem - "it's not like my Android".

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I missed a bunch of things because sailfish's calendar app doesn't have event notification... I don't think it's ugly but it's certainly missing most features. You can get used to not having a calendar app, but you're phone is just a lot less smart that way.

Sé Zuo ( 2019-03-03 00:39:17 +0300 )edit

I honestly can't say anything about it, because I hardly ever use calendar apps. I'm sure it's not as feature-packed as Android calendars, but again - "...missing most features" means, "it's not like my Android", (since Google invented these certain features, that means all others that don't have them are missing features, [so everything will naturally become Android by the time it's perfected])...

Levone1 ( 2019-03-03 04:11:08 +0300 )edit
2

@Levone1: If you can't say anything about it, how can you say all these certain features come from Android calendar? What about Nokia phones, Blackberries, IPhones etc. Don't make it a Sailfish vs. Android thing. I never owned an Android phone but I think I can still guess some of the features the OP is missing, although I don't like how he expressed it here, too.

Pohli ( 2019-03-03 08:01:07 +0300 )edit
4

@Se-zuo: No notifications? When you create or edit an event you can set when you want to be reminded. Has been there forever.

hein ( 2019-03-03 12:29:29 +0300 )edit
1

@Pohli - sorry, that was presumptuous of me - it's true that I don't really know anything about calendar apps, and very little about most of those platforms. I should have just left it at that.

Levone1 ( 2019-03-03 13:26:57 +0300 )edit
7

answered 2019-03-03 09:08:39 +0300

nepomuk gravatar image

The biggest argument for me is the freedom of choice. Right now there is IOS and Google. I wanted an alternative, so i already tried LineageOS (or Cyanogenmod), Ubuntu Touch, Firefox OS an even SailfishOS on my old Nexus Devices. I always returned to Google (actually LineageOS, but with Gapps). SailfishOS is far from being perfect on my XA2, but it is a working alternative and suits my needs, so i will stay on this OS to support the only alternative we have right now.

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Thanks, @nepomuk, for your reply. I would add FairphoneOS and PureOS to your list of systems I would like to try. Maybe one day ...

Jonathan ( 2019-03-03 16:22:14 +0300 )edit
6

answered 2019-03-03 20:54:25 +0300

butler gravatar image

updated 2019-03-03 20:57:08 +0300

In terms of support / bugfixes you can probably expect the same situation as with Xperia X: in one year most glaring bugs will be fixed. Difficult bugs and unimportant bugs won't. Then Jolla would switch to next new phone and support for older ones will be sidelined: no kernel upgrades, no hw-related bug fixes.

In my case here is incomplete list of problems that affect me on Xperia X and probably would never be fixed: can't connect to 5GHz WiFi; have to reflash to Android and back for each new sim card or cell connection is unstable or doesn't work at all (!); unusably distorted video calls in WhatsApp; background WhatsApp dies after 1-2 weeks and continues to until phone is rebooted; no double tap to wake (can be activated from console but then hangs screen from time to time); very outdated kernel version and Android support (technically possible to update but Jolla won't probably due to constrained resources); microscopic font in html email (this one probably still has a chance to be fixed as XA2 collateral).

I agree with @ossi1967, the only reason I see to use Sailfish is to get full linux on smartphone with full root access, preinstalled git, a number of available compilers and interpreters, debian chroot without silly problems and all command-line debian packages available (e.g. git-annex), ability to compile all stuff you need an run it as a daemon in the same way as on other linux distros, use scp / rsync / whatever to copy files without any hassle, manually backup root / home partitions and never deal with clockwork or whatever mods that do god knows what (and general attitude: you don't need to know what this stuff is or how it works internally, download this and that, press these buttons, and you don't need to understand what you are doing just follow the script, ...). But well, sometimes I do want to have a phone that works and can run WhatsApp and a banking app without issues...

So basically, are you a linux dev or power user that enjoys tinkering with stuff? Maybe Sailfish would be a good match. If not, I don't know. It would be interesting to learn other reasons why people stick with Sailfish in the long run.

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4

i wondering evry time, why the hell peoplecome from Android/IOS to SailfishOS and want the same quaility of OS like Android/IOS.

SailfishOSis great because we get possibility. we get possibility to change and setup things like we want. SF will never be the same quality like IOS/Android. There never will be the same amount of apps, the apps will never work the same way like on Android.

Who need Whatsapp and all the shiny-shitt-apps will get better way working on the android / ios.

Thats all. SailfishOS is and will be a niche- nerd-os... dont mix it with Whatsapp. nothing good will come out :)

ExPLIT ( 2019-03-03 21:40:24 +0300 )edit

Yeah!!! Well said.

anasyntes ( 2019-03-03 22:23:06 +0300 )edit
8

@ExPLIT Well, we pretty much agree that Sailfish is not for the mainstream at this moment and won't be in short or mid-term.

As for expectations people that buy a product generally expect it to work as advertized, with reasonable amount of bugs. So someone reads up on jolla.com that there is a smartphone and it has Android compatibility layer, all nice and rainbows. Nowhere it's stated that it's extremely buggy (like 2/5 stars buggy), or that it's for hackers, nerds, linux devs and other tinkerers. And you shouldn't buy this phone unless you really know what you are doing. Inevitably they find out how things really are and are disappointed. So we see posts like this one all around...

butler ( 2019-03-03 22:25:56 +0300 )edit

Fully agree with this! BTW, there are also other ways of communication i.e. Telegram which is in SailfishOS almost great/still far away from perfect but worth donating with the app called: 'Depecher'.

Marti Masa K ( 2019-03-03 22:51:32 +0300 )edit
1

@butler, I'm no dev or particularly tinkering-happy power user, but I have had Sailfish as my daily driver since 2015 with a Jolla Phone and Intex Aqua Fish. Other than certain non-essential Android apps refusing to work because of "jailbroken" OS, I got no complaints on the everyday use, and with all the extra things that Sailfish OS allows me to do in comparison to the consumer mobile OSes it has come to be a no-brainer to hang along.

I now got a XA2 with beta, and I'm in a new situation as an early adopter for the first time in my Sailfish life. Bugs like the proximity sensor acting up on phone calls, Android app non-access to SD card, and the Google Play -needing apps are currently keeping me from adopting XA2 as my main phone YET, but I'm certain it's again a question of 'when' and not 'if' when my XA2 has had the more serious kinks ironed out enough for me to do just that.

The lack of maturation obviously is something I accepted eyes open when opting for a 'beta', so this is not a complaint, but only a notion that the sweet spot of usage of a XA2 with Sailfish OS is only coming up in the future. I wouldn't have hurried if I didn't have doubts on the availability of the XA2 device on that latter day.

teemu ( 2019-03-04 10:50:38 +0300 )edit
5

answered 2019-03-03 00:26:49 +0300

Glitchard gravatar image

Actually Jonathan,

I just switched on my XA2 for the first time to Android (LineageOS 16 – Pie). I am so amazed and sad how much infront that OS is compare to our. There are security apps and solutions for taking “spy-rights” from apps or let them run in quarantaine or feed them with wrong data. Just wonderful. The settings you can do on your OS. And with clever root solution like magisk or splitting account with shelter-app. So much to discover for now.

But I miss PureMaps for navigation. That is No.1 Sailfish native app and no FOSS alternative exist for android, Imho. And with Android 9 it goes from my point of view direction Sailfish OS ;) The new Running-App-Manager UI (I know that term doesn’t exist) and gestures. Obviously stolen from our beloved UI. ;))

So, at the moment there isn’t much to answer you and it seems you know everything to make a decision by your own.

I keep on using my Jolla1. I had almost only positive moments with it and be amazed about getting still updates. My XA2 license for the beta is booked as donations for Jolla, together with my tablet-try. I will keep an eye on it, watch the rough time the company is going again and keep on “donating” for the last alternative mobile OS.

P.S. Librem5 will be to a rough time too. It’s not there 5th phone or OS version. How buggy it will be and how (many) native apps will run, let’s see. But that company isn’t big neither or? Guess the choice between Librem5 and Sailfish OS/Jolla will stay hard for a while. Unfortunatly.

--disappointed Sailfish enthusiast, which became background-supporter--

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7

Jolla employs around 50+ people vs Android development 10k+ people

Spam Hunter ( 2019-03-03 00:49:37 +0300 )edit
4

"But that company isn’t big neither or?"

I am aware of the size of Jolla and their poor recources. My disappointment comes more from the way the 50+ are treating their community. :-*

Glitchard ( 2019-03-03 01:30:30 +0300 )edit
5

I get that it's great to have all kinds of security and privacy options. What I don't get is why you'd want it in the first place. It's like hardening the inside of your house because you want to leave your front door open. DON'T. INSTALL. SHITTY. APPS. Solves a lot of those problems.

Fuzzillogic ( 2019-03-03 03:23:53 +0300 )edit
1

@Fuzzillogic Ey, what‘s wrong with you? Why you CAPS LOCK me?! I see some of those „shitty“ apps as useful and an enrichment for my life. WhatsApp is unfortunately too popular. To be able to communicate with some of my friends and co-worker, it‘s needed. Photo editor apps are worth it to „open my front door“ for them. Same for games. I love them and I want to play in the bus and train, but most of the good stuff wants your data and most of the FOSS games are...well...let‘s say, I never saw Tux as a heroic game character. ;)

Glitchard ( 2019-03-03 13:00:35 +0300 )edit
1

Thanks, @Glitchard, for your reply. "Booking as donation" could become my way, too. But i will give SFOS one more chance in the next days.

Jonathan ( 2019-03-03 16:16:19 +0300 )edit
4

answered 2019-03-05 18:26:28 +0300

mcencora gravatar image

updated 2019-03-05 18:29:45 +0300

I am Sailfish OS user since Jolla Phone.

When J1 was my main driver the situation was pretty good: - all HW features were supported, - we constantly receive updates, - phone was certified for GooglePlay so we could run android-based banking apps, etc.

We didn't receive kernel updates (besides bugfixes), but I'd say that was more HW supplier fault, not Jolla.

In Q4 2017 it was time to switch to newer HW. Jolla announced Sailfish X, and I went for it. Sure they warned that at that time software is in beta state, but as it turned out it is still beta today.

I payed for Sailfish license with promised 1 year support, but during this year, almost no support for high severity bugs happened. There are major SailfishOS specific bugs, e.g.:

  • two way sync of contacts is still buggy (to the point that it eats 100% cpu constantly you need to restart your phone),
  • contacts deamon is eating 1GB of RAM constantly (barely 200contacts)

And there are major HW specific bugs/missing features:

  • roaming stability is non-existing (recently I visited Italy for a week, 90% of time phone couldn't connect to cellular network),
  • celluar stability is not so great (phone randomly decides to disconnect, stating that SIM card was removed, nothing helps but restart),
  • photo image quality is worse than bad in not-perfectly lightly scenarios,
  • no double tap to wake up support,
  • no FM radio support.

These are all well-known over one year old bugs, for basic phone functionalities. Then there are broken-promises Sailfish 3...

This may sound like nagging, but what I'm trying to say is that when you decide to go for Sailfish XA2 you must be prepared that all the bugs you currently encounter will stay unfixed forever.

While they don't want to admit this, Jolla business is in licensing now, and they do work for community Sailfish X SW only if licensed customer has same problem/feature request.

So while we payed for licenses too, it is a losing bet that we will receive same kind of support that big companies that licensed the OS.

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I know the pain since my Xperia was affected by the roaming issue as well but luckily a reflash fixed it in my case. Nevertheless we should be fair here: The roaming issue happens with some phones/installations for unclear reasons. Same counts for the cellular stability. It is a small but loud minority (which is natural for community/support boards).

Spark ( 2019-03-05 19:23:58 +0300 )edit

@mcencora: sad but true @Spark, it may be a small but loud minority (is it?), I was also plagued by mobile data connectivity problems on my X and I didn't need roam anywhere, the connection just died on itself while phone was lying on a table - without any error message. Sometimes did vanish the mobile connection totally. Couldnt ring or be ringed. This is not something that an OS provider can overlook as a "minor problem'... That needs to be priority nr 1. Nothing works if mobile data doesnt work

lumen ( 2019-03-24 15:10:25 +0300 )edit
3

answered 2019-03-05 21:32:29 +0300

tortoisedoc gravatar image

updated 2019-03-05 21:44:21 +0300

It is funny; you are talking about switching away from SFOS. You say you want to stay clear of google; and hence you are considering LineageOS. But lineageos is android (AOSP), no? No wonder it's more advanced than SFOS. Does it count as being "far enough" from google? I personally don't know. Also I don't believe that is a relevant question, definitely not from AOSP's point of view (the answer is obvious), but also not from SFOS. You don't use SFOS to be "just" away from google.

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2

answered 2019-03-03 08:37:42 +0300

pawel gravatar image

i have an xperia x and my.understanding is :.i have LTS for SFOS but the hardwareadaptions and dalvik will not change

in case of XA2 you can expect imho still fixes on hardwareadaptations cause it is even called beta

imho

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Thanks, @pawel, for your reply. Are there any written promises from Jolla Ltd about how long the XA2 is supported?

Jonathan ( 2019-03-03 16:18:01 +0300 )edit
4

I have seen none, but jolla 1 is 5 years and still supported. Jolla tablet: never finished, but you do get updates, intex is now 2-3 years old: not sure if intex supplies updates but you can do.it from cmd.line.. I.have jolla 1, intex and xperia x in my household...

So, the past shows sfos is not the.issue. The hw bugs is what you have to get use.to live.with. And xperia x is realy fine, beside camera and fingerprint .

I m here because google.ads sucks and i pay with less comfort..

I would.wait till they remove the beta from name :-) You can still sell the device here then ..

pawel ( 2019-03-03 18:04:07 +0300 )edit
1

answered 2019-05-04 00:35:10 +0300

justjoo gravatar image

what are the best reasons to use jolla and not android ?

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People have different reasons. See some at https://together.jolla.com/question/177777/question-sailfish-os-vs-aosp-rom/

luen ( 2019-05-04 01:42:33 +0300 )edit
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