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Having remorses for your remorse timer redesign?

Tracked by Jolla (In release)

asked 2019-12-17 00:26:20 +0300

rozgwi gravatar image

updated 2020-01-05 03:09:47 +0300

@jovirkku please pass this on to Martin or whomever is the responsible dev right now

The new design for remorse items is a disimprovement!

Before 3.2.1:
swipe away to finish action, tap to abort. easy, mnemonic gesture favoring the safe abort action via a quick tap anywhere on the remorse timer

Left 3 quarters of remorse item: confirm action, right quarter button like area to abort.
That means: no swipe gesture & minimal accessibility for canceling a remorse action

I'm always rooting for you guys and am trying to be objective.
But honestly have you lost any sense of good UX design?
I mean even the changelog shows that someone wasn't particularly enthusiastic about this change:

[sailfishsilica] Adapt remorse to yet another design.

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Habits are hard to change. Before 3.2.0 and 3.2.1, I had no idea that swipe was to finish action. On 3.2.0, the X button was misleading. The current design in 3.2.1 seems more intuitive than both older designs, but there is still room for improvement. The cancel area needs to be more clearly visible and distinct, maybe a different color or a separating line.

Whatever the design, it needs to be added to the tutorial. That's a SFOS distinct design element, new users need to know about it and how to use it.

orangecat ( 2019-12-17 00:34:15 +0300 )edit

The current design in 3.2.1 seems more intuitive than both older designs

Really? I have sometimes jumped the gun too early with some of the changes made, but this one... It looks like something from a five minute mock-up and it's as little intuitive as they get. I was baffled when I saw it first, and I'm still not sure what to do, so I just end up waiting for the count-down to end. Sorry Sailors, but that's a do-over.

Tanghus ( 2019-12-17 02:35:12 +0300 )edit

I just tried it and feel confused. It has four segments now and only if I tap “undo” the action is cancelled. Every other segment acts as “accept”. How would one know that? I suspect many accidental actions. Especially when it’s so easy to make a mistake - a tap in the wrong place and there’s no return, while a swipe was a very conscious action. One mistap has a dire consequence now.

@orangecat: that swipe was “accept” (and that you actually could ignore the countdown and leave the view as an implicit accept) should be in the tutorial (if it wasn’t already). Redesign is the wrong way to go imo.

Mohjive ( 2019-12-17 02:53:53 +0300 )edit

I agree that it should be more apparent what are does which action.

But actualy, to this day (and I have been using SFOS since launch) I have not been aware that you can actually confirm remorse timers instead of waiting for them to finish counting down. And you do have to wait for them as most apps simply ignore staged remorse timers if you exit a view or close the app.

So definitely still room for improvement & I'm still not convinced enough about remorse timer being actually useful to use them in my apps. ;-)

MartinK ( 2019-12-17 04:47:27 +0300 )edit

@MartinK Jolla only added the swipe-to-commit somewhere during SFOS 2 releases. To me, it was the best UX design feature they have added to date (Waiting for the timer to run out everytime was torturous). Why change the design...? If you accidently choose to delete something, a kind of panic sets in and you immediately want to tap the timer to cancel. Doing that now might have the opposite effect - fail! Swiping the timer away was a very conscious and deliberate action (As @Mohjive said). Rather add the usage to the tutorial to educate the users, than redisgning something that was never broken.

I implore (BEG!) Jolla to re-consider this decision. I see this as a regression.

Nova ( 2019-12-17 07:29:46 +0300 )edit

11 Answers

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answered 2019-12-20 22:36:53 +0300

figgis-diggis gravatar image

updated 2019-12-20 23:15:20 +0300

  1. Hmmm. Another update. Seems like more or less small fixes.
  2. God the new tabs alignment in the Phone and Clock is awful. The polished Messages are nice though.
  3. Let's clean up the ~ a little bit. Whoops selected my "Pictures" directory. Oh well, here's the good old remorse timer (the old iconized version looked nicer though), I'll tap it and cancel the deletion. Cause you know, it ain't called "remorse" for nothing.

Guys seriously. The remorse timer worked that way since Sailfish 1 and once you got it — it was consistent. Even if user didn't know about the possibility to dismiss it early with a swipe — it still was foolproof: if you panicked and tapped anywhere on it the deletion was cancelled.

Now it's a trap.

Please-please-please learn one thing: you don't need a large "yes" button if the deletion will be proceeded without user interference anyway. There's no need to be a UX specialist to know that: just some common sense is enough.

And stop fixing what wasn't broken.

Sorry if that seemed rude to you. Though making such major changes into potentially critical UX elements without at least BIG RED LETTERS in the changelog is much ruder.

Maybe that was one of the cases where you should've asked the users. Just for a change.

And one more little update. Look at https://sailfishos.org/develop/docs/silica/qml-sailfishsilica-sailfish-silica-remorsepopup.html/ (I mean, it's your own documentation)

RemorsePopup QML Type

Shows a pop-up that briefly allows a destructive action to be canceled

For crying out loud.

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answered 2019-12-23 01:03:07 +0300

Why change what is not broken and working good.

The swipe action was and is the best thing here to accept.

Tapping was easy to cancel the deletion.

Now you need to know whicb app you are in and tap accrdingly a different position. And 4/5 of this area will now delete instead of cacelling, the one reason for this!

Revert that to old funtionality asap!

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answered 2020-01-23 13:18:59 +0300

Joona Petrell gravatar image

The work hasn't completed but looks like we are reverting back to the previous redesign introduced in 3.2.0. We are still investigating some smaller improvements.

The problem is that the aiming at what others already have makes you loose identity and one of your unique selling point

We very much agree we shouldn't just blindly copy, but also preserve our own flavour and improve upon commonly accepted solutions. But also we shouldn't be different just because, but there should be some genuine value provided.

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@joona-petrell I think the main problem is that People didn't know about swipe away to dismiss. Many people don't know about features like "swipe away to dismiss" or "swipe to change keyboard" etc. Adding tips and tricks was good move.

It's nice that is possible to turn off tips and tricks but when you implementing new feature it should be presented to user even if tip and tricks is disabled.

Here you have example, one of old SailfishOs user discovered "swipe to change keyboard" in the middle of January by accident. http://talk.maemo.com/showpost.php?p=1564340&postcount=53

atlochowski ( 2020-01-23 15:21:03 +0300 )edit

Indeed. Both remorse gesture and keyboard switch gesture now come with hints, but neither had when the features were originally introduced.

Joona Petrell ( 2020-01-23 15:25:29 +0300 )edit

Wasn't that what started this mess/discussion? What was wrong with the original design?

attah ( 2020-01-23 16:16:21 +0300 )edit

@Joona Petrell
Thank you.

And of course you are right. Blindly doing anything is never a good thing.
I really believe swiping away is best thing here.
When looking back see how much confusion the introduction of 'buttons' brought? And especially in this release we have now.

peterleinchen ( 2020-01-23 17:20:10 +0300 )edit

We are reverting back to the previous redesign introduced in 3.2.0

Wasn't that what started this mess/discussion?

No the discussion here has been mostly related to the design introduced in 3.2.1.

What was wrong with the original design?

Many things. Lack of hints was one so e.g. the gesture dismiss wasn't discoverable like discussed above. Also remorse popups blocked user too much, now we e.g. pop the page when you delete a document in full-screen viewer so you can more easily continue to the next task at hand (undo is still provided as remorse popup as before). The new users didn't really understand how the remorse works so we tuned the wording on remorse texts. Silica API documentation now better explains different use cases when to use remorse 1.) Deleting an item in a list or grid 2.) Deleting a full-screen item 3.) Clearing data (counters, caches, history, etc.) 4.) Deleting multiple items. And half-dozen smaller improvements I don't remember now.

Joona Petrell ( 2020-01-24 10:58:23 +0300 )edit

answered 2019-12-23 22:43:24 +0300

updated 2019-12-23 22:44:19 +0300

image description@Joona

Did you say 'on the right'?

The layout is now optimized for the common case, which is in most cases you purposely selected to delete the item. Undo remorse is provided as secondary action on the right in case the deletion was accidental.

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answered 2019-12-24 07:25:12 +0300

misc11 gravatar image

dear jolla,

i have a great new idea for you! :)

when you want to introduce new ui designs like changed a remorse item, why not have a setting where the user can decide which design they prefer?

let the user decide! :)

i know this is a mindblowing new idea, but there is in fact a place called "openrepos" where people write "patches" to return to old ui designs like buttons, remorse, pulley etc and they make it possible to change these settings.

dear jolla, i believe in you. you can make that too :)

so instead of changing core ui elements without any user feedback, its actually possible to introduce them as a new option, then poll on tjc how the community likes it, and then possibly set it as the new default, while keeping the other designs!

just a crazy radical idea....

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There's a big difference between cosmetic changes like the way buttons look, and behavioural changes like this one. The first ones just make the UI look subjectively prettier/uglier, and don't truly matter - if they aren't thought out all that well, the device will still work just like it did before. Behavioural changes, on the other hand, are very important, because if they aren't thought out all that well, the user is guaranteed to run into trouble.

nthn ( 2019-12-25 21:07:47 +0300 )edit

by behavioural you mean the way the GUI works? or do you mean logic?

misc11 ( 2019-12-25 21:16:18 +0300 )edit

Logic is a better word for what I meant, thanks.

nthn ( 2019-12-25 21:34:02 +0300 )edit

but the logic hasnt changed....

misc11 ( 2019-12-26 12:33:26 +0300 )edit

It does exactly the opposite of what it used to do, how did the logic not change?

nthn ( 2019-12-26 13:05:00 +0300 )edit

answered 2019-12-21 13:16:44 +0300

Woidboy gravatar image

As long as it is well communicated how they work, I'm principally fine with both designs. However, I find it misleading that the Undo button for deletion is at different places for different applications. For instance, while it is usually on the right hand side, you have to tab on the bottom left in order to undo the deletion within the Gallery app. If you tab anywhere else, the picture will be permanently deleted. I had to test this with a couple of unimportant pictures in order to find out the exact spot where to undo the deletion. In my opinion, it is very important to place it always at the same spot. The already mentioned color coding and tutorial instructions would be also very helpful.

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answered 2020-01-25 21:33:05 +0300

rozgwi gravatar image

updated 2020-01-25 21:36:00 +0300

So thanks to Joona we will get the swipe behavior back!

Since some would prefer to completely go back to the 'original vanilla' design, I'm posting the source of an old version of RemorsePopup.qml and RemorseItem.qml. Stumbled upon them by chance.

be aware!: this is a backup made by some OpenRepos package of a patch I installed ages ago (suffixed with webosinternals.orig). Can't tell you which Sailfish version it comes from (might even be 2.x) and thus it's maybe not easy / impossible to patch.

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@Joona Petrell: I itend not to infringe on any copyrights here so tell me if I am.

rozgwi ( 2020-01-25 21:37:35 +0300 )edit

Actually, the QML parts of Silica used to be BSD licensed & there is even a GitHub mirror of an older version:


I guess it is still BSD even now ?

MartinK ( 2020-01-27 21:22:01 +0300 )edit

answered 2020-04-05 14:16:33 +0300

Someone already on 3.3.0 EA could check and let us (me :) know what we can expect from following statement of changelog?

Content deletion use cases redesigned to reduce confusion new users face. The work that was started in the previous release and continued in 3.2.1

Is the 'X' still there? What does it do? Is the remorse divided, i.e. has accept and cancel areas? Does swipe away (accept) work?

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@peterleinchen: did you take a look at the UX section of the changelog?

rozgwi ( 2020-04-05 14:23:37 +0300 )edit

I does sound like they're doing it "right". As it's my only working phone I don't feel confident enough from the reports so far to update atm. But I'd really like to know if it's ok.

Tanghus ( 2020-04-05 14:39:34 +0300 )edit

One thing missing from that section and that is that the 'x' is still present in the top right corner. It dismisses the remorse timer and executes the action. Imho that can be seen as confusing as the hint is "Tap to undo", but it doesn't state where I should tap or that 'x' doesn't equal cancel (which it doesn't).

Mohjive ( 2020-04-05 14:40:52 +0300 )edit

That sounds like they did not listen :(

So we still have confusing Android style mixture? :(:(:(

@rozgwi above statement is from UI seciin of release notes

peterleinchen ( 2020-04-05 14:44:02 +0300 )edit

Is it shown in the tutorial?

Tanghus ( 2020-04-05 14:47:54 +0300 )edit

answered 2020-07-22 01:52:11 +0300

rozgwi gravatar image

@Joona Petrell: I'm afraid this remorse conundrum is going to haunt you: https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/remorse-timer-layout/307

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Yes! (10 chars)

peterleinchen ( 2020-07-22 09:56:16 +0300 )edit

answered 2020-01-25 23:01:34 +0300

Ras72 gravatar image

Hi. My vote would be to have this be a setting that could be selected. One of the biggest things I liked about the last update is that this remorse timer changed. I do things all the time and swiping away remorse timer always annoyed me. I understood why it was there and appreciate how it could really save people from catastrophe. However, when they made this change, I find that I am much faster on my device because I can just tap that timer and move on with life.

So I would like the freedom to be able to keep the functionality as it is now and realize the risk exists for me to accidentally delete something important. On the other hand, I totally understand how others would want the old functionality.

Please, if possible, make this an option in settings rather than completely taking away current functionality.

I love the upgrades everyone's been doing. I was able to switch back to 10 Plus as daily driver as a result of the 3.2.1 updates. Thank you!

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Asked: 2019-12-17 00:26:20 +0300

Seen: 2,798 times

Last updated: Jul 22 '20