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Jolla IM Server - XMPP for everyone

asked 2014-02-24 13:42:55 +0300

chemist gravatar image

updated 2015-03-24 13:57:21 +0300

In the current IM flux with whatsapp and stuff, Jolla could make a loud snatch by having their own XMPP server with the latest state-of-the-art XEP/standards implemented and user prefixes from normal user accounts (eg chemist@jolla.com). Jabber and jingle server primarily for their customers but open to all.

Sure this would only make sense when the unified client eg telepathy-gabble would support all of it so sailors with their own accounts somewhere else or even their own server could profit too.

On a sidenote, all major players have their own email/messaging/cloud and so on, I know Jolla is yet to become a major player but starting it with doing things different could turn out to be the selling point. Supporting open solutions first and maybe later start up services for customers not so tech-savvy to host their own servers. Also integration of security services may come easy if you go down that road with XMPP+GPG/OTR. As long as you do not start negotiating with better solutions for you (reads outsourcing) like maybe Open Whispersystems I'd prefer going down the vanilla XMPP road and maybe contribute to issues like "push-messages".

Community input 2015-03-23 by @mosen

As facebook chat integration will be gone with facebooks recent strategic decisions, i am suggesting to set up a "Jolla XMPP Server" to close the gap a little.

To make it as convenient as possible to the casual user it would be nice if an account to that server would be automatically created and set up on the phone corresponding to the "Jollastore Username".

This clearly would be no substitute to easily message with "non-jolla" users but maybe a cool incentive to help swapping some of our contacts to inform themselfes about xmpp or even sail with us?

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Instead of xmpp i would prefer a solution based on WebRTC if and when is possible.

ApB ( 2014-02-24 15:05:40 +0300 )edit

@ApB if I wanted a browserOS I'd use chromium or firefox...

chemist ( 2014-02-24 15:25:00 +0300 )edit

I understand but its not about browsers (period) Its about a common, work everywhere standard. The end user just wants things to work. And having someone to be able to contact you from his browser mobile phone another app on the desktop or whatever is more convenient IMO.

ApB ( 2014-02-24 15:57:14 +0300 )edit

so webRTC is common? It used to be common about 15-20 years ago when everyone was hanging in chatrooms after that there was ICQ next to some other RTC programs evolving to what is now called IM. Now we have HTML5 and you want to start that process all over again with JavaScript negotiated P2P? Well it is a new technology based on what, right, XMPP! So what you are actually asking is that telepathy-gabble should also be able to negotiate WebRTC compliant P2P connections?! or for gecko?

chemist ( 2014-02-24 16:24:16 +0300 )edit

Common not in the sense of widely accepted and used everywhere but as something that will -when its ready- work everywhere. Most browsers support it out of the box for example.

ApB ( 2014-02-24 16:49:02 +0300 )edit

3 Answers

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answered 2015-03-25 18:42:34 +0300

dulog gravatar image

Please don't do that:

  • Jolla creates hardware and OS, that's enough control -> avoid centralization
  • There are enough open 3rd party XMPP servers out there -> support decentralization
  • Don't try to tie the platform to strong to Jolla services only
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XMPP should be properly implemented in sailfish2. A MUC client would be a welcome addition too.

XMPP itself needs to evolve to compete, but that is food for another forum... :)

vattuvarg ( 2015-03-25 20:36:27 +0300 )edit

How does having an xmpp account with each jolla account tie to the platform? XMPP is already decentralized! This is a move to get people off of heavily controlled proprietary services like google or facebook - to start with Jolla needs to make their phone OS capable of xmpp in a way that is not limited to download an addressbook and send a msg... so to start with support those 3rd party servers and their XEP profiles.

chemist ( 2015-03-25 21:48:21 +0300 )edit

As i understand it would be a step to make dezentralized services more attractive if they are easy to setup. How else do you want to get noobs to use e.g. xmpp if not with a centraliced initiative in form of easy system integration? Yes many noobs will stay on that centralized jolla server. But many will grow and discover that its ll about decentrelization and go their own way. Jolla can make an offer leading users to the right decisions. Also it would be great DIT wise and nice improve to community spirit to have a possiblitiy to have other jolla users/devs "available" simply with their Store ID and/or unified TJC accountname.

mosen ( 2015-03-26 12:47:58 +0300 )edit

@mosen - People already know and understand decentralised network services. Mail is just one example. At first the social media seems to be a good thing. Lots of free services all rolled into one. A crowd of lovely strangers to meet. A bit like most modern cities, actually.

But the companies running these virtual cities are doing it for the money. They use us as a lab rats in their experiments. ...and they sell us for the pleasure of others.

We all know that cities eat people and these virtual ones are pretty much the same. Maybe even worse. Just look objectively at how Facebook treats their guests. Does pictures of Gotham come to your mind too?

But creating another megacity online is not an option. Not even if it flies the Jolla flag.

If we insist upon the benefits of a megalopolis then we must pay for them too, one way or the other.

But there are still some options left.

vattuvarg ( 2015-03-26 13:40:01 +0300 )edit

@mosen nice one! @vattuvarg you are so very wrong, $most-people are sheep and use facebook-msg, google-hangout, whatsapp and so on... Mail? Most people have their privat mail account at google, microsoft, yahoo or even their ISPs bundled with proprietary services! FOSS community is a minority and most people do not care if they upload your data together with all other contacts in their addressbook too such services - so no people did not understand decentralization of services, they just go with what they get offered and take the deal they like centralized as it can be as they do not like to use 50 clients if there is one google-account to rule them all. Your cities analogy is quiet right but those people living there most of the time know other cities only, there is no real rural area in that world they all think that other domains than those cities are schools, libraries the suburbs or industrial parks. This question is not asking to build another city, it is meant as a gateway out of those megacities in existence. What you could dream of is that xmpp some day just works like email in those megacities, create an account and connect to anyone having email and xmpp in a heartbeat. Jolla setting up a server integrated with their accounts-system would be an ambassadorial move, one of the mobileOS companies of the world offers a non-proprietary service for everyone, seamlessly integrated in their OS available on any other OS from desktop to DECT phones (yes my Siemens Gigaset has an xmpp client running!), maybe we need a next gen service like ricochet to get you but I hope you get the idea. It is a seed, nothing more.

chemist ( 2015-03-26 14:20:14 +0300 )edit

answered 2017-02-10 08:29:08 +0300

benka gravatar image

I think it is more important to enhance the Jolla XMPP client (messages App) first. Regarding XMPP features I am missing support for Stream Management and OMEMO. Maybe File Transfer is missing too. Furthermore, it would really help if additionally to the time also the date is displayed at messages.

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I'm okay with the date not being displayed all the time because you usually receive IM messages much faster than SMS, so it would just be a waste of space. There needs to be some kind of separator to indicate a new day, though.

nthn ( 2017-02-10 12:45:32 +0300 )edit

@nthn I agree to not display the date on messages wrote/recieved the same day. But at least on my Jolla I do not see dates on messages wrote/recieved several days or weeks ago. For me this would be really helpful. After I have read your post I checked the App settings whether there is some configuration option, but it seems not to be configurable.

benka ( 2017-02-10 21:32:21 +0300 )edit

That's what I meant: it should show the date just once for every day messages were received, so:

1 february

15:43 Message 1

15:44 Message 2

2 february

16:32 Message 3

And so on. By the way, you can already make XMPP work better (including Stream Management) by following the instructions here: https://together.jolla.com/question/111544/lets-try-to-get-someone-else-to-fix-xmpp/?answer=155221#post-id-155221

nthn ( 2017-02-11 00:28:09 +0300 )edit

answered 2015-03-24 00:32:08 +0300

Andy Branson gravatar image

updated 2015-03-24 14:48:49 +0300

Jolla being in control of their own XMPP chat server would provide a good testbed for implementing message archive synchronization. XMPP Gateways to Hangouts and the new Facebook Chat API would probably cause trouble, but would be lovely...

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XMPP in Hangouts and Facebook is anyway on a dying way.. Its not clear that within the next year XMPP will be still supported by these services.

PatsJolla ( 2015-03-24 14:13:13 +0300 )edit

XMPP Gateways act as proxies to other IM services which may be a different protocol. The contacts from the other services appear in your XMPP contact list, and you can chat with them. The Gateway relays messages between your XMPP client and the user on the other service. After Facebook closes its XMPP service at the end of April, the only ways to chat with Facebook users with a Jolla is either through the Facebook Chat Android app, or using the web interface.

Andy Branson ( 2015-03-24 16:54:50 +0300 )edit
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Asked: 2014-02-24 13:42:55 +0300

Seen: 2,728 times

Last updated: Feb 10 '17