[Request] Please don't use crowdfunded money to pay for extra patent licenses! [answered]

I agree on that, yes.

Besides, who needs to format anything with any DOS-compatible fs'es (fat, fat16, exfat, ntfs, whatever) since simple and effective license-free solutions like ext4fs exist .)

Yeah, I've gotta admit, they should go into greater detail about exactly what is going in to that first stretch goal. If people start associating it with paying a M$ tax, it might turn _off_ more contributors than it would attract...

If you want this to end educate your friends/relatives/whatever to alternative filesystems.

Oh wait. They don't care and they will just plug in their brand new 128GB SD card and expect it to work as is. To their phone, their win8 machine, mac to the neighbors phone anywhere.

Sad situation but Deal with it. Nothing to do. Jolla has to offer features not satisfy FSF and RMS. If they become big enough we will be able to forse btrfs on everyone. Until then ...

It's not about educating anyone. It's about using contributed funds to goals which are in line with contributors' expectations.

As for filesystems - you can format your card with NTFS and your non technical friends will read it just fine on their Windows systems. Another option is UDF.

And if you want this to end, the last thing we should do is funding MS lock-in and software patents.

Full ack. I purchased my perk I did it to support Jolla, even I was "a little bit disappointed" after I bought the Jolla phone with the expectation that really everything is open source. I still hope it will happen and I will still continue Jolla until I will lose my hope that this will happen. But as I read the stretch goal about 128gb SDXC I thought "WTF". Pay a license for unfree unnecessary feature is full the wrong way! Why not include a format when insert a >32gb card (of course with question to the user) if the card is exFat. Why not mount and make well links automatically? Please Jolla, think why people buy Jolla and support Jolla. What is the expectation of the customers. For me it's clearly I want to have open source firmware, and open hardware. I want transparency and control over my devices.

Another option: use the funds to pay an army of lawyers and try to invalidate all of MS's stupid exFAT patents. Win-win!

Sure, that would be a worthy goal, though it would also enrage MS and incite them to attack Jolla. So one should be careful about angering a very powerful thug. It might be brave, but it also might be extremely dangerous.

While I agree that exFAT support is something Jolla really needs to add to support folks who "just want it to work", I also agree with shmerl: using crowdsourced funds is the wrong way to do it. This is a feature oriented towards making sales for non-technical users, and as such, Jolla should pay for it out of their own pocket.

@DiosDelRayo Yeah, just add a simple dialog:

The micro SD card you have inserted has an incompatible format and needs to be formated so that your Jolla can use it. 

**CAUTION: Formating the card destroys all data currently present on it.**

Format the micro SD card now ? YES / NO

BTW, most cameras already have a similar functionality, so I cant really see why the Jolla can't do the same. :)

What many people seem to miss with Jolla is this: That there is a FOSS side, a Business side and a market side. All three have to balance and IMO jolla does it quite well. FOSS people want openness which is somehow on the opposite side of business and market. This is easy to undestand with all those whining about closed silica, exFAT and other similar stuff. But at the end of the day jolla has to make money and have something of its own to sell. Most people buy features that work and ease of use. And those people are far more than those that care about exFAT or openness and the more products jolla sells the better for everyone.

But at the end of the day jolla has to make money and have something of its own to sell.

When Jolla make a crowdfunding campaign, they are essentially asking people to be investors. It's normal for investors to have certain expectations. So it's about this matter precisely. I bet most people didn't expect Jolla to start funneling invested money to Microsoft and it's something that can be detrimental to making a decision to invest in the first place.

People who want "things to work" and don't care about consequences have tons of other tablets on the market. Why did some people contributed to Jolla and didn't just buy what's around there? Think about it.

@ApB: Sure, most people want exFAT compatibility. However, "most people" aren't contributing on Indiegogo -- only the most technically-oriented folks are. Asking those contributors to pay for exFAT is going to be a turn-off.

I also find it distasteful to use crowdfunding to pay for this filesystem. Is Jolla really "Unlike"?

I don't care about people which don't care. If the majority of customers buy their products because of A, but the selling company concentrate on what want the non-customers and chance A to B, they will and up with no customers. It's really simple and I think the most customers of Jolla think different then mainstream, but you can only ride one horse a time. I loved apple products since 2005, I ended up in have only Apple products in 2012. This year I felt betrayed by Apple, I realized that I have no control over my device, my data, my privacy - control over nothing. I gave away my almost new iPhone, I bought once more in my life a thinkpad and installed kubuntu on it, I bought an android tablet to install finally Plasma Active on it. So I can get rid of Apple. I hope really that Jolla finally realize why people buy Jolla products, and more important why people support Jolla. And I hope I'm not wrong with what I think about Jolla supporters.

@shmerl While yes you "are" the investor the tablet is not only going to be produced in igg numbers but also be available to the general market. You are not the only user of jolla. And certainty someone who buys one for his mom doesn't expect her to understand filesystems. Also i see the Igg thing as a marketing thing -spread brand awareness- rather than a way for jolla to attract more money.

the tablet is not only going to be produced in igg numbers but also be available to the general market.

Having no exFAT support isn't a major obstacle for non technical users. See above - the system can propose to format it in something else on insertion.

Anyway, as others already said, Jolla can pay for exFAT from some other resources, but using crowdfunded money for it is really weird, since people who contributed actually have no need for exFAT altogether (the vast majority of these people can format SD card into whatever filesystem they choose).

M$ proprietary file systems are inadequate, insecure and an inappropriate waste of funds for a project that is supposed to be based on on open source philosophy.

@shmerl to be consistent you should be like RMS ;) you should not buy smartphones at all because they contains a lot of closed bits, a lot of stuff covered by patents etc. So, to be consistent you should decide should you use modern devices or refuse to use them at all.

to be consistent you should be like RMS

Consistent with what? We aren't talking about Jolla already licensing different stuff. For example I'm sure they are already paying for H.264. We are talking about using crowdfunded money for it. The former? It's their decision. The later - that already involves those who participate in this campaign. Jolla didn't need to take this money from people. Yet they did. So this is perfectly consistent - I don't want my investment to fund MS patent trolling.

BTW, Linux FUSE exFAT implementation is GPLv2 :P And as I wrote before if you are talking about getting rid of patents you should refuse to use any device because even Neo FreeRunner contained parts (covered by patents, even software ones). I am even not talking about Nokia Linux-based devices.

BTW, Linux FUSE exFAT implementation is GPLv2

That doesn't make it patent free.

@shmerl

since people who contributed actually have no need for exFAT altogether

Gather votes but do not talk behalf of other people.

Gather votes but do not talk behalf of other people.

That's trivial. Since those who contributed are technical people and can format their SD cards in anything from FAT32 to whatever. And those who want other features and don't care about this have a long list of choices already on the market besides Jolla tablet. So this request is exactly this vote.

@shmerl Do you know personally everybody who contributed? ;) I know at least several absolutely non-technical person who contributed... Please, do not talk behalf other people. Discuss, propose, gather votes - this is your right. But you do not have right to talk behalf of 6000+ people participating in the campaign until they gave you this right.

Discuss, propose, gather votes - this is your right

That's exactly what we are doing here.

@shmerl BTW, you oppose exfat to f2fs... Are you sure it is patent-free? ;) Can you show any Samsung declaration that they grant patent rights to everyone or that any part of f2fs is not covered by patents?

Are you sure it is patent-free?

It's included in the kernel and as such should adhere to its patent policy. If you want I can look up details on this (it's exactly the reason why for example exFAT and NTFS drivers are not included in the kernel).

About non technical users - others already proposed how this can be improved without resorting to exFAT. For example system can reformat the card in FAT32 prompting the user about this issue.

@shmerl Also, do not forget to offer some alternative and simple solution for people using digital cameras who want to insert cards into tablet to read data. Also propose solution for users of other OSes than Linux (not only Linux users are participating).

That's exactly what we are doing here.

No, currently you are trying to speak behalf of all campaign participants:

since people who contributed actually have no need for exFAT altogether

Since those who contributed are technical people and can format their SD cards in anything from FAT32 to whatever.

Also, do not forget to offer some alternative and simple solution for people using digital cameras who want to insert cards into tablet to read data.

That was already proposed above. See response from @MartinK in the comments to the request itself.

No, currently you are trying to speak behalf of all campaign participants:

For those participants who supported Jolla for the given reasons, yes. For all those participants.

@shmerl Personally I am strongly against SW patents. And I am using rarely even FAT(32) and never used exFAT. But we should respect all people who are participating in the campaign, so let's take everybody into account. Also, why do you think gathered money will be used to pay royalties?

But we should respect all people who are participating in the campaign

Yes, so this is a question of what motivated people to support this campaign, instead of buying one of the many existing tablets. Jolla's stretch goal (at least in my view) files in the face of many supporters who funded the campaign based on Jolla's claim that they are independent and powered by open source.

Also, why do you think gathered money will be used to pay royalties?

Isn't it implied? How else do you understand it?

For those users who just want a phone, music player and camera there are plenty of proprietary closed source much cheaper and better specified alternatives out there. This customer base does not care about security and in general lacks technical interest in developing the product so do not fit the ideal Jolla customer demographic.

Most people with an understanding of technology know that if your device runs closed source code and you not know what it is doing then you do not own that device as it and it's manufacturer actually own you.

That is why everything from the boot code upwards needs to be open for inspection by it's owner.

Richard