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[Request] Please don't use crowdfunded money to pay for extra patent licenses! [answered]

asked 2014-11-28 19:41:45 +0300

shmerl gravatar image

updated 2015-09-23 14:12:14 +0300

chemist gravatar image

A lot of people support Jolla because of your contribution to advancing mobile Linux and related open technologies. Using crowdfunded money to pay software patents' licenses to MS (such as for exFAT to support SD cards larger than 32 GB or the like) is not the investment many of your supporters would like you to make. That's like promoting further proprietary lock-in and funding MS software patents grip.

Please revise your stretch goal and instead of using those funds to pay MS, propose some goal which is in line with openness and innovation (may be contribute some resources to F2FS development and use it as well)?

UPDATE1:

One good suggestion how to address this issue without hurting usability came from a Reddit user @haagch:

Why is nobody speaking about the obvious solution? exfat support should be a paid "app" and cost exactly what it costs to license it from microsoft and it should say so in the app description. It could also be an "upgrade" for $XX that you select when buying the device.

I don't care about making an account there, but the reply to "If you want this to end educate your friends/relatives/whatever" should be to make a pop up: They will just plugin their sd card and get a pop up: "Want to use this sd card with exfat? Microsoft requires you to buy an exfat license for $XX to do that" and then allow them to easily buy such a license.

This way those who need it and don't care about giving their money to MS, can pay for it. And those who don't need it won't be forced to have it. Plus crowdfunded money won't be used for it as well. Which still would mean that the stretch goal should be about something else.

UPDATE2:

I missed the comment from @Fuzzilogic which essentially proposes the same thing. I'll add to the answer.

exFAT-support could be purchased and installed from Harbour. Those who need it can pay for it.

UPDATE3:

Some suggest, that exposing exact price that MS wants for the patent license might be problematic either because MS requires an NDA from company which uses it or because the price isn't fixed and is for example set in bulk depending on the number of devices. In such case Jolla can set whatever price they want for the end user, and pay to MS on their own. At least this will be kept as a conscious opt-in, and not a forced feature paid with crowdfunded money.

UPDATE4:

Some other concerns brought by Reddit users:

@scottywz: I think the issue is that they would be committing trademark infringement by saying that they support >32GB on SD cards but not supporting exFAT. Yes, trademark infringement: the SD Association only lets you say that you have an SD card slot or that you support certain sizes of SD cards if you follow the spec, and they use trademark law to enforce it. So of course you can format your card with another filesystem (at least I hope Jolla doesn't put in some arbitrary restriction on it), but Jolla still has to say they don't support cards greater than 32 GB in size. (Although I don't know if they can say why....)

@TheFlyingGuy: The SD association actually has their trademark licensing agreement such that you must support no more or less then the SD, SDHC or SDXC standards (which all include the previous ones). If you support more, then you lose the right to call it SD. So supporting SDHC with non-exFAT SDXC cards (which because SDXC demands exFAT technically aren't SDXC cards anymore) means you lose the right to call it SD or license any of the other patents.

@TheFlyingGuy: You can [support additional standards implemented on SD-class hardware] on an additional socket that is not SD compatible (because the SD standard socket is patented) so you could add in an additional MMC socket (which is mechanically incompatible but electrically and protocol wise share a common subset) with 128GB ext/4 support. Note, all the major memory manufacturers are SD concortium members, so MMC cards tend to be slow and use last-gen memory (hence smaller). And legal, perhaps not in the EU, but fighting this, good luck, many smaller vendors use MMC for a reason if they can deal with the limitations.

This surely is a major mess, which only strengthens the point that paying any money to MS to support this nightmare is an extremely bad idea.

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The question has been closed for the following reason "the question is answered, an answer was accepted" by r0kk3rz
close date 2015-08-26 15:29:58.646655

Comments

37

I agree on that, yes.

Besides, who needs to format anything with any DOS-compatible fs'es (fat, fat16, exfat, ntfs, whatever) since simple and effective license-free solutions like ext4fs exist .)

juiceme ( 2014-11-28 19:49:50 +0300 )edit
18

Yeah, I've gotta admit, they should go into greater detail about exactly what is going in to that first stretch goal. If people start associating it with paying a M$ tax, it might turn _off_ more contributors than it would attract...

Copernicus ( 2014-11-28 19:55:39 +0300 )edit
23

If you want this to end educate your friends/relatives/whatever to alternative filesystems.

Oh wait. They don't care and they will just plug in their brand new 128GB SD card and expect it to work as is. To their phone, their win8 machine, mac to the neighbors phone anywhere.

Sad situation but Deal with it. Nothing to do. Jolla has to offer features not satisfy FSF and RMS. If they become big enough we will be able to forse btrfs on everyone. Until then ...

ApB ( 2014-11-28 19:57:56 +0300 )edit
31

It's not about educating anyone. It's about using contributed funds to goals which are in line with contributors' expectations.

As for filesystems - you can format your card with NTFS and your non technical friends will read it just fine on their Windows systems. Another option is UDF.

And if you want this to end, the last thing we should do is funding MS lock-in and software patents.

shmerl ( 2014-11-28 19:59:28 +0300 )edit
43

Full ack. I purchased my perk I did it to support Jolla, even I was "a little bit disappointed" after I bought the Jolla phone with the expectation that really everything is open source. I still hope it will happen and I will still continue Jolla until I will lose my hope that this will happen. But as I read the stretch goal about 128gb SDXC I thought "WTF". Pay a license for unfree unnecessary feature is full the wrong way! Why not include a format when insert a >32gb card (of course with question to the user) if the card is exFat. Why not mount and make well links automatically? Please Jolla, think why people buy Jolla and support Jolla. What is the expectation of the customers. For me it's clearly I want to have open source firmware, and open hardware. I want transparency and control over my devices.

DiosDelRayo ( 2014-11-28 20:05:39 +0300 )edit
2

Another option: use the funds to pay an army of lawyers and try to invalidate all of MS's stupid exFAT patents. Win-win!

javispedro ( 2014-11-28 20:05:41 +0300 )edit
9

Sure, that would be a worthy goal, though it would also enrage MS and incite them to attack Jolla. So one should be careful about angering a very powerful thug. It might be brave, but it also might be extremely dangerous.

shmerl ( 2014-11-28 20:07:50 +0300 )edit
9

While I agree that exFAT support is something Jolla really needs to add to support folks who "just want it to work", I also agree with shmerl: using crowdsourced funds is the wrong way to do it. This is a feature oriented towards making sales for non-technical users, and as such, Jolla should pay for it out of their own pocket.

Copernicus ( 2014-11-28 20:08:04 +0300 )edit
12

@DiosDelRayo Yeah, just add a simple dialog:

The micro SD card you have inserted has an incompatible format and needs to be formated so that your Jolla can use it. 

**CAUTION: Formating the card destroys all data currently present on it.**

Format the micro SD card now ? YES / NO

BTW, most cameras already have a similar functionality, so I cant really see why the Jolla can't do the same. :)

MartinK ( 2014-11-28 20:11:48 +0300 )edit
9

What many people seem to miss with Jolla is this: That there is a FOSS side, a Business side and a market side. All three have to balance and IMO jolla does it quite well. FOSS people want openness which is somehow on the opposite side of business and market. This is easy to undestand with all those whining about closed silica, exFAT and other similar stuff. But at the end of the day jolla has to make money and have something of its own to sell. Most people buy features that work and ease of use. And those people are far more than those that care about exFAT or openness and the more products jolla sells the better for everyone.

ApB ( 2014-11-28 20:16:08 +0300 )edit
17

But at the end of the day jolla has to make money and have something of its own to sell.

When Jolla make a crowdfunding campaign, they are essentially asking people to be investors. It's normal for investors to have certain expectations. So it's about this matter precisely. I bet most people didn't expect Jolla to start funneling invested money to Microsoft and it's something that can be detrimental to making a decision to invest in the first place.

People who want "things to work" and don't care about consequences have tons of other tablets on the market. Why did some people contributed to Jolla and didn't just buy what's around there? Think about it.

shmerl ( 2014-11-28 20:18:26 +0300 )edit
9

@ApB: Sure, most people want exFAT compatibility. However, "most people" aren't contributing on Indiegogo -- only the most technically-oriented folks are. Asking those contributors to pay for exFAT is going to be a turn-off.

Copernicus ( 2014-11-28 20:18:54 +0300 )edit
7

I also find it distasteful to use crowdfunding to pay for this filesystem. Is Jolla really "Unlike"?

salyavin ( 2014-11-28 20:19:00 +0300 )edit
6

I don't care about people which don't care. If the majority of customers buy their products because of A, but the selling company concentrate on what want the non-customers and chance A to B, they will and up with no customers. It's really simple and I think the most customers of Jolla think different then mainstream, but you can only ride one horse a time. I loved apple products since 2005, I ended up in have only Apple products in 2012. This year I felt betrayed by Apple, I realized that I have no control over my device, my data, my privacy - control over nothing. I gave away my almost new iPhone, I bought once more in my life a thinkpad and installed kubuntu on it, I bought an android tablet to install finally Plasma Active on it. So I can get rid of Apple. I hope really that Jolla finally realize why people buy Jolla products, and more important why people support Jolla. And I hope I'm not wrong with what I think about Jolla supporters.

DiosDelRayo ( 2014-11-28 20:24:39 +0300 )edit
1

@shmerl While yes you "are" the investor the tablet is not only going to be produced in igg numbers but also be available to the general market. You are not the only user of jolla. And certainty someone who buys one for his mom doesn't expect her to understand filesystems. Also i see the Igg thing as a marketing thing -spread brand awareness- rather than a way for jolla to attract more money.

ApB ( 2014-11-28 20:29:08 +0300 )edit
7

the tablet is not only going to be produced in igg numbers but also be available to the general market.

Having no exFAT support isn't a major obstacle for non technical users. See above - the system can propose to format it in something else on insertion.

Anyway, as others already said, Jolla can pay for exFAT from some other resources, but using crowdfunded money for it is really weird, since people who contributed actually have no need for exFAT altogether (the vast majority of these people can format SD card into whatever filesystem they choose).

shmerl ( 2014-11-28 20:33:26 +0300 )edit
6

M$ proprietary file systems are inadequate, insecure and an inappropriate waste of funds for a project that is supposed to be based on on open source philosophy.

richardski ( 2014-11-28 21:20:04 +0300 )edit
4

@shmerl to be consistent you should be like RMS ;) you should not buy smartphones at all because they contains a lot of closed bits, a lot of stuff covered by patents etc. So, to be consistent you should decide should you use modern devices or refuse to use them at all.

dez ( 2014-11-28 21:25:35 +0300 )edit
6

to be consistent you should be like RMS

Consistent with what? We aren't talking about Jolla already licensing different stuff. For example I'm sure they are already paying for H.264. We are talking about using crowdfunded money for it. The former? It's their decision. The later - that already involves those who participate in this campaign. Jolla didn't need to take this money from people. Yet they did. So this is perfectly consistent - I don't want my investment to fund MS patent trolling.

shmerl ( 2014-11-28 21:30:25 +0300 )edit
1

BTW, Linux FUSE exFAT implementation is GPLv2 :P And as I wrote before if you are talking about getting rid of patents you should refuse to use any device because even Neo FreeRunner contained parts (covered by patents, even software ones). I am even not talking about Nokia Linux-based devices.

dez ( 2014-11-28 21:32:14 +0300 )edit
3

BTW, Linux FUSE exFAT implementation is GPLv2

That doesn't make it patent free.

shmerl ( 2014-11-28 21:33:04 +0300 )edit
5

@shmerl

since people who contributed actually have no need for exFAT altogether

Gather votes but do not talk behalf of other people.

dez ( 2014-11-28 21:41:49 +0300 )edit
2

Gather votes but do not talk behalf of other people.

That's trivial. Since those who contributed are technical people and can format their SD cards in anything from FAT32 to whatever. And those who want other features and don't care about this have a long list of choices already on the market besides Jolla tablet. So this request is exactly this vote.

shmerl ( 2014-11-28 21:46:44 +0300 )edit
1

@shmerl Do you know personally everybody who contributed? ;) I know at least several absolutely non-technical person who contributed... Please, do not talk behalf other people. Discuss, propose, gather votes - this is your right. But you do not have right to talk behalf of 6000+ people participating in the campaign until they gave you this right.

dez ( 2014-11-28 22:02:17 +0300 )edit
1

Discuss, propose, gather votes - this is your right

That's exactly what we are doing here.

shmerl ( 2014-11-28 22:05:50 +0300 )edit

@shmerl BTW, you oppose exfat to f2fs... Are you sure it is patent-free? ;) Can you show any Samsung declaration that they grant patent rights to everyone or that any part of f2fs is not covered by patents?

dez ( 2014-11-28 22:06:10 +0300 )edit
2

Are you sure it is patent-free?

It's included in the kernel and as such should adhere to its patent policy. If you want I can look up details on this (it's exactly the reason why for example exFAT and NTFS drivers are not included in the kernel).

About non technical users - others already proposed how this can be improved without resorting to exFAT. For example system can reformat the card in FAT32 prompting the user about this issue.

shmerl ( 2014-11-28 22:07:42 +0300 )edit

@shmerl Also, do not forget to offer some alternative and simple solution for people using digital cameras who want to insert cards into tablet to read data. Also propose solution for users of other OSes than Linux (not only Linux users are participating).

dez ( 2014-11-28 22:08:18 +0300 )edit

That's exactly what we are doing here.

No, currently you are trying to speak behalf of all campaign participants:

since people who contributed actually have no need for exFAT altogether

Since those who contributed are technical people and can format their SD cards in anything from FAT32 to whatever.

dez ( 2014-11-28 22:10:21 +0300 )edit
1

Also, do not forget to offer some alternative and simple solution for people using digital cameras who want to insert cards into tablet to read data.

That was already proposed above. See response from @MartinK in the comments to the request itself.

shmerl ( 2014-11-28 22:10:53 +0300 )edit
2

No, currently you are trying to speak behalf of all campaign participants:

For those participants who supported Jolla for the given reasons, yes. For all those participants.

shmerl ( 2014-11-28 22:12:53 +0300 )edit
1

@shmerl Personally I am strongly against SW patents. And I am using rarely even FAT(32) and never used exFAT. But we should respect all people who are participating in the campaign, so let's take everybody into account. Also, why do you think gathered money will be used to pay royalties?

dez ( 2014-11-28 22:24:26 +0300 )edit
1

But we should respect all people who are participating in the campaign

Yes, so this is a question of what motivated people to support this campaign, instead of buying one of the many existing tablets. Jolla's stretch goal (at least in my view) files in the face of many supporters who funded the campaign based on Jolla's claim that they are independent and powered by open source.

Also, why do you think gathered money will be used to pay royalties?

Isn't it implied? How else do you understand it?

shmerl ( 2014-11-28 22:32:27 +0300 )edit
33

For those users who just want a phone, music player and camera there are plenty of proprietary closed source much cheaper and better specified alternatives out there. This customer base does not care about security and in general lacks technical interest in developing the product so do not fit the ideal Jolla customer demographic.

Most people with an understanding of technology know that if your device runs closed source code and you not know what it is doing then you do not own that device as it and it's manufacturer actually own you.

That is why everything from the boot code upwards needs to be open for inspection by it's owner.

Richard

richardski ( 2014-11-29 00:31:08 +0300 )edit

Isn't it implied? How else do you understand it?

This is speculation. There is another way: to ask it instead of speculating and blaming ;)

what motivated people to support this campaign, instead of buying one of the many existing tablets

you will be surprised that there are many reasons :) And RMS will not buy it anyway: this is not Lemote Yeeloong ;)

dez ( 2014-11-29 00:54:15 +0300 )edit
10

exFAT-support could be purchased and installed from Harbour. Those who need it can pay for it.

Fuzzillogic ( 2014-11-29 02:10:21 +0300 )edit
1

@Fuzzilogic: That would be the perfect solution! But is it allowed? My understanding was that exFAT licensing terms are an all-or-nothing sort of deal; you can't choose to pay for it on some machines, and not on others...

Copernicus ( 2014-11-29 02:14:07 +0300 )edit
3

Love that suggestion Fuzzillogic!

salyavin ( 2014-11-29 02:28:32 +0300 )edit
6

Fully agree with @shmerl's proposal, Jolla shouldn't use crowdsourced money to pay M$ for proprietary and closed tech, (or patents) which probably most Jolla users do not want in their devices. Also, forum moderators shouldn't try to downplay community in expressing this wish and request, cause it's the #open and #unlike that Jolla and #SailfishOS is all about, so let's just keep it that way, please. If one of the stretch goals had been e.g more powerful battery instead of this, the first and second goals would probably have been achieved already. +1 for @Fuzzillogic's workaround for non-tech oriented users to have their favorite cards & OS supported..

foss4ever ( 2014-11-29 02:55:12 +0300 )edit

Specially when to implement the feature, all you need to do, is already done!

dsilveira ( 2014-11-29 08:49:14 +0300 )edit
1

Yeah, right! Let's ask for $200K to implement the feature already implemented by these guys

dsilveira ( 2014-11-29 08:50:57 +0300 )edit
12

I would like to see the first stretch goal changed to "support independent developers" in some direct way or use the money/manhours to "implement payed apps support to Jolla Store". Which would have a similar effect. 32GB cards are totally sufficiant for the next 2-4years. And i would prefer to rely on EXT or even ZFS for the far future. What are we, unlike??

mosen ( 2014-11-29 13:31:56 +0300 )edit
2

Totally agree, paid app support and support for developers would be a much better investment

shfit ( 2014-11-29 14:40:05 +0300 )edit

@dsliveira This is not about implementation but about licensing :P Evil M$ already tried to squeeze money from fat32 users but they was unsuccessful, so introduced exfat and used their dominance on desktops to push exfat to be used by majority of hw vendors and they are using sw patents to sqeeze money.

BTW, if you are using Android phone most probably you are paying M$ FUD tax ;)

dez ( 2014-11-29 15:09:08 +0300 )edit
1

You can use any abstraction layer you want along with custom sync software, so please revise your goals!

Adonai ( 2014-11-29 15:26:06 +0300 )edit
3

Jolla is Open Source, not Free Software!

I can understand the Trouble but the much bigger Thing IMO are the proprietary Drivers made by Qualcomm, Intel etc. This is why Jolla has to be "Android" like and can´t go it´s own ways Hardware wise.

What i don´t like about the perk is the fact that Jolla goes the "the more Hardware, the better the product" way we all know from our beloved (or not) Android phones!

florifreeman ( 2014-11-29 16:01:54 +0300 )edit
4

This perk is not actually about improving the hardware, 32GB SD and 128GB SD have the same electrical interface. The difference is that the latter is formatted with an unsupported proprietary filesystem, one that requires payment of royalties. So this perk only improves marketing numbers, and has very little functionality impact. The better the hardware the best is the product is true in a general sense, especially when the software it must run is the same. But even there, the numbers used by marketing to brag are not always good indicators of good hardware.

mikelima ( 2014-11-29 16:49:00 +0300 )edit
1

I actually fail to see why we'd need exFAT support. We've had disks larger than 32GB for... A decade? And linux has supported them fine. There's ext3, ext4, raiserfs, btrfs, and the list goes on and on. If you need win32 support, can't you just use ntfs? There's open source implementations for that too.

WhyNotHugo ( 2014-11-29 17:13:22 +0300 )edit

3.5G and two other amazing Stretch goals added! -> Amazing truly... not sure in which sense?

Why those exactly? Suggestions: Split screen being the most intersting stretch goal and software based, enhance it with some extra polish on OS side and integrated features. HW: 64GB internal, writing + drawing pen and pressure sensitive standard support, leading in class loudspeakers, kickstand, IR Tx & Rx, hinge part to unite 2 Jolla tablets for combined stretch screen operation, ...

vandersmash ( 2014-11-29 17:14:18 +0300 )edit
1

It's irrelevant if 32GB is sufficient or not - there are plenty of ways to use 32GB cards without exFAT. Even if you want win32 compatibility, you've got NTFS support on linux already.

WhyNotHugo ( 2014-11-29 17:16:11 +0300 )edit

Software patents are illegal in Europe, so

dsilveira ( 2014-11-29 17:19:51 +0300 )edit

@dsilveira They are legal in US :/ AFAIK this is SD association SDXC licensing/certification requirements.

dez ( 2014-11-29 18:50:04 +0300 )edit
2

Normal user here. I certainly want to put SD card from my camera to Jolla Tablet and see the pictures/videos in much bigger screen on the road. If Jolla can support >32GB cards, I'm happy. I invested on a productive tablet, not some OSS / purity movement.

vode ( 2014-11-29 19:08:53 +0300 )edit

I was really saddened to hear this. Jolla is giving in for the big ships and hides behind "MicroSDHC support up to 128GB", which I reckon from the discussion is a pure marketing lie. I'll consider pushing Jolla for a refund.

Nokia tablet has bigger battery, is thinner and have better specs. If money should be spend on development it should be on this. ANT support? People who wants exFat could pay for this later on. For a stationary memory card, exFat is probably a terrible file-format to begin with.

togga ( 2014-11-29 20:28:29 +0300 )edit
1

Did you answer to the right topic?

I think everyone (here) agrees that everything should be open source, and ideally free software.

But I don't see how that's relevant to whether Jolla should include support for SD cards over 32GB by default. There I disagree, I actually want to be able to use the same SD card on both android and jolla devices, and I think that's important for adoption as well.

sandsmark ( 2014-11-29 21:39:20 +0300 )edit

The answer is to the topic. It's about why people support Jolla instead of buying something else. And a lot of people do it because Jolla is friendly towards open technologies.

shmerl ( 2014-11-30 01:08:52 +0300 )edit

@dez:

This is speculation

Jolla is free to chime in and clarify the situation. It's not a speculation, it's a technical prerequisite.

shmerl ( 2014-11-30 01:10:26 +0300 )edit
8

One good suggestion how to address this issue without hurting usability came from a Reddit user @haagch:

Why is nobody speaking about the obvious solution? exfat support should be a paid "app" and cost exactly what it costs to license it from microsoft and it should say so in the app description. It could also be an "upgrade" for $XX that you select when buying the device.

I don't care about making an account there, but the reply to "If you want this to end educate your friends/relatives/whatever" should be to make a pop up: They will just plugin their sd card and get a pop up: "Want to use this sd card with exfat? Microsoft requires you to buy an exfat license for $XX to do that" and then allow them to easily buy such a license.

This way those who need it and don't care about giving their money to MS, can pay for it. And those who don't need it won't be forced to have it. Plus crowdfunded money won't be used for it as well. Which still would mean that the stretch goal should be about something else.

UPDATE2:

I missed the comment from @Fuzzilogic which essentially proposes the same thing.

exFAT-support could be purchased and installed from Harbour. Those who need it can pay for it.

UPDATE3:

Some suggest, that exposing exact price that MS wants for the patent license might be problematic either because MS requires an NDA from company which uses it or because the price isn't fixed and is for example set in bulk depending on the number of devices. In such case Jolla can set whatever price they want for the end user, and pay to MS on their own. At least this will be kept as a conscious opt-in, and not a forced feature paid with crowdfunded money.

UPDATE4:

See some other legal concerns added in the main request.

shmerl ( 2014-11-30 01:18:02 +0300 )edit

6 Answers

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108

answered 2014-11-30 13:33:00 +0300

eric gravatar image

updated 2014-12-03 15:33:00 +0300

UPDATE


Please, read this post and contribute to this poll.

Thanks a lot in advance for all your ideas and valuable input so we solve this together!


Dear Jolla community,

We hear you loud and clear and appreciate your feedback which we take with utmost respect.
Please allow us some time to consider and prepare further options within the first stretch goal.
We'll update you shortly, hang on there!

<3 The Jolla Tablet team

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Comments

5

Thanks for comment, which was missing!

I do also like to avoid paying license fees to that big player but did not vote up as I see the necessity in that patent world we live in.

peterleinchen ( 2014-11-30 14:11:02 +0300 )edit
1

In case of: Should Jolla remain on its course to expand microSD-card capacity... by paying royalties... why not punch another hole (size of FULL SD-card) into the hull. Meaning both SD- and microSDreader as separate devices on the tablet. No joke.

freshwater_crawler ( 2014-11-30 15:14:53 +0300 )edit
1

Thank you for the statement!

DiosDelRayo ( 2014-11-30 16:44:40 +0300 )edit
14

It is really nice to see feedback from the community being taken into account, definitely #unlike! :)

MartinK ( 2014-11-30 16:48:13 +0300 )edit
2

Thanks for chiming in. Please clarify this situation further to avoid unnecessary confusion and speculation.

shmerl ( 2014-11-30 19:36:36 +0300 )edit
7

answered 2014-12-06 13:19:04 +0300

John Haynes gravatar image

No, actually do. As a normal end user I don't agree. I just want the regular cards I use in my digital camera to just work. It's no use to say, "Oh just use another open source file system" because my digital camera isn't going to understand those, nor is any other consumer device.

Open source is good, useful, etc., and yes it is a shame that the standard chosen for high-end SD cards is currently subject to license fees, but at the same time I want my device to be practical and useful and to live in the real world, and also ultimately I'd like other, non-tech people to use it (e.g.: maybe I gift one to them) and to be encouraged to adopt it, so enhancing the . That's never going to happen if it doesn't "just work" (to coin a phrase) on the basics...

There is a phrase in English, "to cut your nose off to spite your face". This would apply well here in this particular context of digital purism... It doesn't really serve the end game well of giving life to the ecosystem and ensuring it's long-term viability of the platform and device as a whole.

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Comments

It is the Micro SD version (originally designed for use in mobile phones) not the larger Standard SD card for camera, laptop, desktop computer which you do hand to a friend without fear that dropping it on the lawn will make it lost forever.

Do you or any main stream user looking for convenience really use a Micro SD card with adapter in your camera so that you may put it in your tablet / phone?

And which "just works" option do you prefer to explain to non-technical users:

A) tell the users that unlike with Apple, Amazon or cheap Nexus tablets they can extend the memory of their Jolla tablet up to 128GB by simply putting any Micro SD card , agree to the pop up formatting warning and dialogue.

B) SDXC!!! Tell the users that unlike with Apple, Amazon or cheap Nexus tablets they can extend the memory of their Jolla tablet in line with true SDXC standard (what's that card is card, no?) up to 128GB by simply putting any Micro SD card.

And benefit from following options:

  • -remove the Jolla tablet Micro SD card from the device, put it in a computer or other device like camera (provided they brought the Micro-to-normal-SD adapter) in order to copy files from and to it.

    • Micro SD Cards camera and computer can be swapped with the one in the Jolla in order to copy docs and foto's to the tablet (to internal 32GB memory of course, as the SD memory is temporary unavailable).

    -or just not extend the Jolla memory and make putting computer or camera Micro SD cards in the Jolla even more easy to copy pictures or docs to the large 32GB internal memory.

    Don't forget to also thouroughly explain "safe removal" of exFat cards when swapping them from tablet to computer and back.

Fact is that an honest company designing a tablet with and for its users cannot exclude an extendible memory option without being suspected of "obsolescence by design" intentions.

Jolla did already deliver here, period.

vandersmash ( 2014-12-08 11:03:59 +0300 )edit

Hi there,

Thanks for your comment. And my apologies for taking my time to reply: been a bit busy the last few days due to sudden appearance of water in my apartment in a place where it shouldn't be.... :s

So, firstly, yes you are correct the slot is MicroSD, and my post perhaps wasn't very coherent in that regard. All I can say in my defense was I wrote that one while half asleep and not overly well in bed Saturday morning, so I fear my brain wasn't fully engaged. Let me see if I can clarify...

So yes, of course a full-sized SD won't fit in the actual slot, and for those one needs to plug a full-sized SD card adaptor into the USB slot. But the same principle would supply there (as it would for a USB key or other USB drive) in terms of compatible file system support. I also do have other devices (tablets, phones, etc.) that do have MicroSD slots already and I already have ExFAT formatted cards I'm using with those and I want to be able to move my data back and forth simply.

So yes, I am saying that ExFAT should be supported for interoperability reasons with other devices and PCs, both for the card slot and for connected USB storage devices.

Absolutely other fully open-source formats can and should be supported: no disagreement there, and indeed as many as are reasonable for Jolla to support and maintain (and there's a bunch of great suggestions over on the poll as to which ones), for again interoperability reasons. But yes, ExFAT and SDXC should be supported also because a lot of users (including me :) ) just want that (relatively low-level in the modern age) stuff to work without hassle. There's basically other ways I want to spend my time than having to mess around much with file and disk formats :) . This is of course my opinion, and I suspect your opinion there may be rather different and that's fine. Each to their own... :)

John Haynes ( 2014-12-10 20:37:19 +0300 )edit
6

answered 2014-12-04 18:40:16 +0300

this post is marked as community wiki

This post is a wiki. Anyone with karma >75 is welcome to improve it.

updated 2014-12-04 18:50:14 +0300

AbyZThomas gravatar image

Microsoft has announced a new licensing program for its Extended File Allocation Table (exFAT) technology. For certain device categories, such as cameras, camcorders, and digital photo frames, the software giant is charging a flat $300,000 license fee, while companies that want to use the format in devices such as phones, PCs, and networks will have to pay a volume-based license fee.

http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2009/12/microsoft-licenses-out-exfat-file-system/

Edit: Here are some more info

Microsoft License notice. http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/legal/IntellectualProperty/IPLicensing/Programs/exFATFileSystem.aspx

It is part of SDXC spec. I bet the association got bribed by Microsoft. https://www.sdcard.org/consumers/sdxc_capabilities/using_sdxc/

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4

i am so angry!!! arrrhg.. i don't want to do anything with microsoft=\ @#$@ that company and there "standarts".

virgi26 ( 2014-12-05 11:13:17 +0300 )edit
3

Standards are good, especially in grammar. The reason is that many users are able to understand the information, not only the minority of users that think "standart" means standard. SCNR ;)

the_mgt ( 2014-12-05 15:31:45 +0300 )edit

Example:

Nokia N900, advertised to be supporting up to 16GB SD Card

From manual N900:

Use only compatible microSD cards approved by Nokia for use with this device. Nokia uses approved industry standards for memory cards, but some brands may not be fully compatible with this device. Incompatible cards may damage the card and the device and corrupt data stored on the card.

-Nokia does not advertise SDHC (2G up to 32GB) compatibility and the world kept on turning, at least for a while. -Their manual says: your "standart" be what it may, we support only what works in our device. -the standard is what works, not what should work depending on some label and license fee. Nokia certified, FTW, if you try something else, you are on your own.

Finally 5 years later SDXC 64GB works fine on the N900.

Cool.. Let's apply this on Jolla.

Support 32GB (already mentioned the SDHC standard) well enough and let those who want more memory take care of themselves, off the record.

Micro SD Cards are the insert and forget type and it suffices they are formatted once with an OS supported file system.

No need for this exFat license in case of Micro SD in this scenario, especially not when you have already USB OTG.

Jolla please make sure users don't eject the card by "holding the tablet wrong" ...

vandersmash ( 2014-12-08 22:55:56 +0300 )edit
4

@vandersmash: Nokia, as a company, did not need the N900 to be a major success, they had enough diversity with other devices in 2009. Jolla has two devices and they deserve that they are a major success. So advertising 32gb internal memory + 128GB sdxc cards is a huge benefit. Consider yourself a shareholder of Jollas success, would you rather see Jolla succeed or would you rather satisfy your personal hatred against MS and standards? The other thing is, large USB devices are formated exfat by default nowadays, so USB OTG without exFat just introduces another level of incompatibility.

the_mgt ( 2014-12-08 23:38:39 +0300 )edit
-1

answered 2014-12-05 18:37:17 +0300

unlikeyou gravatar image

updated 2014-12-05 18:38:05 +0300

Why not pay license fee to Microsoft to have skype instead of exfat, your jolla phone and tablet after all is about internet call, and video internet call

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9

Don't do that ! Support Firefox Hello for example. Or any free (as in Libre) alternative. Not closed source blackbox (and not MS).

alci ( 2014-12-05 18:50:10 +0300 )edit
7

Why not? Because proprietary, centralized protocols should be avoided.

Fuzzillogic ( 2014-12-05 20:01:53 +0300 )edit
-1

answered 2015-11-20 06:25:35 +0300

playjot gravatar image

updated 2015-11-20 06:27:14 +0300

Wow, but in Pakistan qmobile offering these all facilities with low prices even then smartprix, and other manufacturers, lets have a look Qmobile

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@playjot you saw that this question is one year old and CLOSED, right ?

ced117 ( 2015-11-20 09:48:48 +0300 )edit

Wow, but in Pakistan qmobile offering these all facilities with low prices even then onlineprice, and other manufacturers, lets have a look qmobile

raaga26 ( 2017-06-22 09:17:36 +0300 )edit
-3

answered 2014-12-10 09:17:28 +0300

Twinklestar1792 gravatar image

In India we have tablets with calling feature(3G/4G), Wi-Fi, memory card support which is lower price than Jolla.

http://www.smartprix.com/tablets/with-call_facility-flash-front_camera-4g-3g-bluetooth-fm_radio-wi_fi/7_inch_8_inch-8_inch_9_inch-display/1920_x_1080_full_hd-display_res/5_mp_above-8_mp_above-camera/1_gb_above-2_gb_above-ram/16_gb_above-32_gb_above-memory?uq=1

Expect Jolla tablet to be more precaution before announcing its price.

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various pricelist are available only at https://www.pricekart.com

avnisharma ( 2018-06-06 09:02:45 +0300 )edit

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