[Official announcement] Current status of Update10 [answered]

Hi Sailors, thanks for sharing information. What about other features. Is the list you gave the complete changelog for update 10?

Well, this update would calm lot of anxious users here . Thanks for the update and your efforts on Sailfish OS.

Thanks! Make the release rather more stable than sooner. :)

Thanks for the update, the main issue then, that blocks the release, is OOM problem, it seems that the available RAM resource is not enough?

Jolla team, thanks for the info. As you stated, it's best to have a proper and working update than some almost-ready update. We'll just have to be patient...

Thank you for the info, though it still came couple days late as the promise for the update was during november. And thank you for not making any promises of exact release date, this is the point I've been constantly trying to make.

Thanks for the update. To be honest, after reading this I kinda doubt the release will be out before years end.

Thanks for giving some information, we do appreciate it, even though it's not the kind of news we were hoping for.

BTW, what about zram ? It has been mentioned before but I don't see it on the list. :)

What is worrying me quite much is not to hear anything about CalDAV and CardDAV. I am 10 months without a working calendar on my phone now and these issues have been rated highest ever on the forum since beginning of the year. I seriously start to doubt, that this forum has any reasonable impact on what is going on at Jolla. So what should users do with a phone/tablet, where you cannot sync the calendar? (please nobody tell me now, that syncing with Google is possible, because people who want to sync with Google don't buy a Jolla!)

@Jolla: it is not important for us, when update 10 is coming, but will CalDAV and CardDAV be supported and when? Or do we have to buy another phone now?

@mousse04: Check the changelog of the opt-in update 9. This (coming update) should be a "combined update" (of 9 and 10).

@thomas: There is already support for CalDAV.

P.S. Thanks for the Update, Jolla.

@thomas the opt-in upgrade 9 works fine for me with caldav and carddav from an owncloud installation. Some tinkering is still required (the URL on the phone and server-side), but in if you face problems you can post them here and people that got it working will be able to help you out (if it is owncloud+nginx I can provide my config). Bottom line: this forum does work and Jolla does listen. :-)

@bijjal: Alright, let's dispense with the friendly banter. Nobody cares when this update's gonna be released. All we want to know is: Which lake will it be named after this time? :D

I'd like to know if it is possible to easily turn off the OOM killer if an user wants to do so.

I have been running 1.1.0.39 Uitukka since the beginning and I have not encountered any memory problems, and I'd like to keep things running when I start them, no "androidsky" automatic killing of applications for me please. :)

@torcida@sidv CalDAV is still NOTworking reliably (should I say "at all") with a number of servers, the popular fruux.com and mykolab.com in particular.

Being able to sync the phone contents IS one of the main reasons to own a "smartphone" as opposed to a feature phone and, being this technology mature and open-source, it is expected to be working almost flawlessly.

This and the spare batteries unavailability are in my view a big fiasco and the main reason why I still don't recommend Jolla to anyone, nerds or else.

@IZ1IVA no need to scream, I am reading you alright. :-) I do absolutely agree that those are vital services on a smartphone. However, I can only report that they work for me in my setup. So claiming that they do not work at all is wrong. I understand that this does not solve your problem with your services of course but is 1) a good sign and 2) @thomas did not specify which CalDAV/CardDAV server he is using or if he is on update 8 or 9 (which got things working for me).

I hope that "messages app isn't kept in memory when closed" doesn't affect how push messages work (even when the phone is locked, as it works now).

Like MartinK, I am also interested in knowing about Zram, will someone comment please!!

We warned about the RAM being too small, when the initial specs where released :P

Anyway, thank you Jolla, very much for, this time, giving us the information we needed, and desperately asked for! Thanks, and good work

Thanks to jolla team for the information. I hope the update 10 will be released in December, it would be an awesome gift for Christmas

Regarding CalDav, check: https://github.com/nemomobile/buteo-sync-plugin-caldav, all those fixes since Jun(update8) and Sep(update9) are coming for update10, please note that the list above is about memory fixes, many more fixes are coming.

I could care less about the timing, but what worries me are the measures taken to solve the bad memory situation. I do experience problems under 1.1.0.39, but I'd rather have laggy phone, than the system killing my apps. If I have too many apps running, that's my problem, not the system's problem.

The second thing is the browser tab killing - webOS had this "feature" and it was just terrible. You opened a website to read later (without an internet connection) or was in the middle of writing a blog post, when you suddenly found a blank tab instead of your web page.

PS: Damn you who turned @juiceme 's post into a comment. It was a valuable answer to Jolla!

@dsilveira The problem is not 1GB RAM - N900 had just 256MB and I was often running >8 apps without any lags.

@nodevel, I kind of wondered at that myself! :)

Well, probably this is one of those threads where an answer is not really expected... :O

I never ever had RAM-issues on the N9. Well, neither do I have issues now, actually, perhaps because I just don't keep many apps open at once. How come this is such a problem all of a sudden?..

@nodevel of course only 1GB is a problem. Sailfish is not Maemo5 and 2014 is not 2009. Things move on. However it is a shame Jolla seem to have not forseen the memory problems when updating Sailfish's core APIs and systems. I suspect preparation would have taken a fraction of the time that active triage has and is taking.

Thanks for the update. However, according to the information in this post, it may now be 6 months between stable updates; with further delays, perhaps even more. Can you share what you think has gone wrong with the development cycle in Q3 and Q4 of '14?

Whilst plenty of people complained about remaining bugs and absent features in Q1 & Q2 (me included), we did get regular updates which improved many things for end-users. Now, by contrast, the vast majority of end-users have been feature (and bug) locked since the middle of July, and this with a "monthly" release schedule having been committed to. There seems to have been a repeating pattern of woefully over-optimistic development schedules communicated by Jolla. When targets are missed again and again, usually it's a good idea to review the process and make changes or alter goals. Has there been any introspection of this kind, or is Jolla just forging on as best it can?

I fear with MWC coming up at the beginning of February, if some goals aren't met soon, the potential of winning new partners and collaborators shrinks exponentially and the business plan may effectively be shunted a year into the future.

This, yes. Early adopters are being increasingly locked out. I imagine most resources are locked up in SW development for the tablet... gods only know if the phone will see any benefit from that work.

@bijjal Thanks for sharing all this! Could you please share the name of te update in advance, as knowing only that would enable me to deliver a giveaway already for Christmas?

I'm sure it will benefit, but the inability to meet (frequently revised) goals has to be a worry. Crowdfunding campaigns can turn very sour when products aren't delivered on time.

Oh, “linux” phones always underestimate RAM. N900 was hugely RAM-starved and so is Jolla now... all we read in changelogs is how memory footprint was reduced and efficiency improved, yet over the years software requirements only increase... I guess nobody saw a memory footprint increase with newer Qt versions coming? :-) I'm sure the changelog doesn't mention that... But yeah, “sailfish is efficient, sailfish doesn't need that much RAM, sailfish is very snappy on mid-range hardware” and all that... still, sailfish on jolla can't even switch smoothly between the home screen and the lock screen and now with update 9 it paints itself into a RAM-starved corner every now and then...

@midnightoil, well, nobody said sailfish “2.0” will run on the phone as well, did they?

Jolla did. It's just a version number, and one primarily dictated by marketing. It'll be one OS.

@midnightoil, ok, at least something ... do you have a pointer to this statement you are referring to?

@mornfall See @bijjal answer here - https://together.jolla.com/question/63989/jolla-tablet-sailfishos-2-coming-to-jolla-phone-1/

may be new QT version is giving them hard times with that OOM issue, and they can not roll back to previous version now

Hell of a good wrap up about software development and project management!

@sidv I'm sure you're reading me alright, but not Jolla, it's kinda shouting at deaf ears ;-)

Their CalDAV implementation is broken in most cases, that's a fact. Does it work with ownCloud with some tinkering? Great, but on several others it doesn't "at all", since it dies silently after the first sync and there's nothing I can do about it. Yeah, I could try my luck with openrepos and Uitukka, with all the potentially bad consequences. All this for a pretty basic feature, just like being able to buy spare batteries...

I could not have put it any better. Jolla has not once delivered on its promise of 'monthly updates'. Sort out your software development process Jolla! When people start running, it will be too late.

Hope you will manage to release it very soon :/

See @bijjal answer here

bijal''s answer does not state that Sailfish 2.0 will run on the Jolla. It is very carefully worded when it says "we aim to provide OS updates for both our devices regularly"

@icebox Ubuntu Touch is much more open (in every sense) than Sailfish, and Canonical than Jolla. January is apparently when we'll finally see Meizu's MX4 / MX4 Pro laden Ubuntu launch. So take a look at that. However, I would warn you that the 'multi-tasking' is not yet multi-tasking and the whole UI and scopes thing seems more like a placeholder until something better is developed. But it's very open and the Ubuntu community is enormous, so perhaps they'll get fixed swiftly. Mobile data / wifi / connectivity are definitely much, much better on the Nexus 4 port than on the Jolla, if that is any indication of usability / quality.

I don't think they have the resources to support two substantially different builds of the same OS. They're too small. If they try, it'll inevitably fail. I'd imagine the main (and possibly only major) difference between the phone and tablet OS will be that the phone will remain ARMv7 (and hopefully v8 in future), and the tablet x86(64?). I suspect the 'careful' wording is more to do with support for the J1 specifically, as opposed to phones generally.

@virgi26 the inability to roll back to qt5.1 is indeed the main problem everything is taking so long. We overestimated the production readiness of qt5.2, and now need to make it work somehow. Combine that with the summer vacation issue @bijjal mentions in her answer, and you have a nice little problem.

That being said, we revised our development and integration processes over the last months, and improved infrastructure -- this should make it easier for us to work on updating a central component like qt outside of the main development tree, if it gets merged and goes wrong allow us to roll back, and allow us to work on multiple updates at once, if required (right now we have a limit of 2 for that, we'll give the new process a try with update11)

It seems you do a lot of vacation in Jolla... :-)

@midnightoil@strongm the @bijjal answer is a typical vague jolla non-answer and if anything, it sounds more like there will be divergent sailfishos “flavours”... so if this is all we have about sailfishos 2.0 running on the phone, then it's about as good as “anyone's guess” -- definitely not an official statement of support...

It seems that you are having quite a lot of problems with memory. What is increased memory usage caused by? Is it purely by Qt 5.2 or is there some kind of regression? Reducing memory footprint is fine, but from that list it seems that they are necessary to keep system usable.

the fact that you ditched working on a product for a period of time just to announce another product is unacceptable . How can you expect me to buy your tablet if you can't even finished the phone !?!

I would like to know what's the plan with zram ? I remember it has been mentioned that it will be integrated in Update 10. I'm using the zram packages from OpenRepos on my Jolla and it seems to help quite a bit. also zram is being used on many other mobile devices (Firefox OS devices, newer Android phones, even the N9 used the zram predecessor) so it would be only natural to use it also on Sailfish OS.

Of course provided there are no insurmountable blockers preventing its use. :)

...and even in such a case I would be quite interested what those blockers are/were, just due to pure technical curiosity. :)

Yup, I would like to know that either.

And if zram would not be enabled in u10, could you please share the kernel sources earlier so that I can compile the module myself? With Uitukka we waited almost a month...

@MartinK, @Vinodh, yes, zram has been enabled in the kernel, I missed that from my original post, updated it now. Thanks for poking.

@torcida, @sidv: I am using owncloud (works fine with Thunderbird as client). I read all comments about CalDAV features of the preliminary update 9 and 10 and there seem to be a lot of problems especially with repeated dates and faulty syncs. Furthermore, there seems to be no sync log - this is essential to check whether everything went right. With my Nokia 5800 I used the purchased software Winfonie mobile 2 and this worked excellently. Because of the existing memory problems, which are currently cured out by the Jolla team, I didn't install the update. I am enthusiast, but most important is that I have a working phone. Many evening-long sessions with the current stable FW version and CalDAV failed (one sync, and then nothing happened any more). Since I cannot wait longer I bought a OnePlus One phone now, and will set the things up there. VoIP phoning with CSipSimple works well and there is not the Jolla problem, that the loudspeaker is always one (not fixed for one year). But to be honest: I like the concept of the Jolla more and hope that they will make it. The pity is: I would like to recommend the Jolla phone to my environment, but I cannot until essential things are not really fixed such, that a normal user can use it. I don't know, why the Jolla leaders don't see this point, they are just wasting a lot of money. Instead of porting the OS to other platforms, make it better and sell much more phones (I think they could, if all of us could make an honest advertisement to our friends), Jolla is not listening to what most of the users need (just look at the votes). If there were simple workarounds (like in navigation: just use OSMAnd), fine - but for calendars and addressbooks this doesn't exist. I spent so much time with it - I cannot afford more. If I still would be a student, I would sit down and hack an app, which is doing the job, but unfortunately I don't have the time for it anymore.

@juiceme OOM killer can be configured if you want to, in /sys, but when you're truly out of memory, OOM killer will happily take hostages and kill enough processes until it gets some memory.

@pmelas The problem isn't that, it's how the system reacts when low on memory that's not appropriate. Application lifecycles anywhere dictate that when memory is low, processes get killed.

@goldenm Shouldn't affect anything

My preferred updates...

• Copy paste in dialer
• copy/forward number from contact details
• incoming/outgoing differentiation in call log
• last calls history/attempts/duration for calls in call log
• icon sets for Folders [all folders looks the same]
• Grouping of icons [not folders] just segmentation of selected icons in a group
• Apps apps apps... Native apps please
• live analog/digital clock as widget and few other lockscreen widgets {native} dont allow non-native apps to lockscreen
• many android apps throws error while accessing gps, camera etc
• Native chat app like whatsapp which can connect to whatsapp{like yappari} skype, viber etc
• slightly skew towards android UI which will gain many users otherwise its hard for OS shifting

@Stskeeps, thanks. Is the OOMK configurable on what is the order/preferencs when it starts to kill processes?

@thomas, Jolla needs to live another day. Thus they need periodically new products to stay float. There needs to be careful balance to serve old products/customers and new ones. When the resources are limited they need boldly prioritize things.

@penpen if your business model is screwing over your core customer base, you may see another day or two, but it probably won't be many more than that...

Maybe we get option to clear call log? It might even give us few bits to use =D

@mornfall well, isn't it a good thing then that that ain't their business model? ;-)

@mornfall I wouldn't describe "receiving more official updates than any other device on the market" as "being screwed", but hey, that's just me :)

lol i have to create a feature request and VOTE for it? even the basic features? sorry, if you want to provide basic feature upgrade, give the upgrade else i dont care how sailfish works