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together guidelines organisation: question and improvement suggestions

asked 2014-12-05 02:04:11 +0300

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updated 2015-01-23 00:34:10 +0300

cemoi71 gravatar image

@eric, @vattuvarg.

First of all I want to tell that i am really new in sailor world. It make fast one month that i get my phone, and near of two week that i surf in together website. Like somebody could say, shortly described, i am a newbie (great). The first that i see of this new world (like a lots of people), new kind of thinking, new kind of acting. We are different, we are together. Other os, other design, other gesture, light.

It seems to be for me all easy, and quite here in together too. We can put a question, as improvement suggestion, as survey, as bug declaration, as protest... I could answer, make some suggestion, vote + for good idea, vote - for it won't bring something good for us. You get points and see you participate for a community project (more or less). It's easy, seems to work like every forum, just be sociable, and bring some experience, and ideas, help people to think clear (hmm that wil be now complicated).

So shortly I want to participate on a survey with good ideas. Made some suggestions. And then, bing! 200 points less. I don't care on the points really for the points, but as indicator of sociability and participation. What's happened when i think that i've productively and well, it's seems that the contrary?

Then came a lots of questions, and it goes complicated. I do now ask all those question. they may be easy, but it goes deeper on sense. The way i want to go is for everyone, that means it should be so easy as possible, that a child could understand. Question for child and fool avoiding misunderstanding:

First, The poll or survey, it seems to be an high need to have the answer as wiki. If you don't do that, then your bad. Maybe accepted as newbie, i don't know. Until now i thought i knew what is a wiki. But bound to the together use, i don't know. it's different.
1) why do we need to answer as wiki community? what is hidden behind it?
2) Please show me the wiki utility.
3) Is it possible to make it automatically when the thread creator informs that is a poll?

So i got my points less. was a bad feeling, i do something good, and i'm seen as bad. Aouch!
4) If there is something why not ask for if it serious or not? suggest to change it and give a little bit time for it.
5) I know, every people have a lots of things to do. but let's time for the people to discover the site. All the informations to know how all work, is disperse everywhere. Need time to gather all.

The problem was, that was obvious (not for me), that what i've was not fair form guidelines. The first that i read was the faq and the help, and some guidelines. And don't understand some things like, what is a poll, the wiki-community.
6) why should some people give minus point if people want participate? participate is always positive, even if it's duplicate or in wrong form. The understanding of them is a little bit different. Minus points should just for contra-productive reaction ONLY. Minus points means unsociable, unfriendly.
7) Give minus point to people who participate, but made wrong, is for me a form of laziness. Why people don't ask themself "what's wrong in the system that bring the people do wrong?" first, and ask then this one why?

8) guidelines are just to be found in this little link in features tag? why are they not in faq or help?
9) guidelines link is not red and flashy in bold ?
10) For those who create a guideline, it is always good if there is an explanation why it is needed. All the people are not skilled on this kind website usability. that not obvious for everyone.

Resumed, I ask for more tact, please.
There is no doubt, the people are here really nice with a lots of understanding, if we explain the fact. That really great, but something are little bit confused, maybe messy. Situation is fixed by me, but i ask me what did happened to someone if he has't the "loudmouth"? The community could loose him, and at last a lots of other one.

(end of first part. i'll think for more reaction or ideas of improvement, and make then an update).

11) 2 counters for upvote and downvote (new point added 22.01.2015):
I don't know if askbot could support it. But i think for a better overview, it will be find to separate the counter from upvote with downvote. Display 2 counters for each one. Voting is a kind of expression. should note attribute point especially negative one. downvote should not influence the counter of upvote, both are separate for better comparison.

have a nice sail

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The day has been long.

My thoughts keep orbiting a few strange ideas. The smaller phone. The jollaDesk. Medical OtherHalves...

Not used to being asked... Especially about how to herd cats. But I will try to give some sort of answer tomorrow.

Now the hours of this day have all slipped by. New chores tomorrow.

vattuvarg ( 2014-12-10 01:03:33 +0300 )edit

@vattuvarg: you're welcome. take your time. i couldn't react so fast since the last discussion. needed to make some order in personal life (is 1st prio ;-) )

cemoi71 ( 2014-12-10 01:13:35 +0300 )edit

7 Answers

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answered 2014-12-10 14:15:42 +0300

vattuvarg gravatar image

On guidelines and habits

This is the couch frontier. This is the wild-ish west. This is a blank page with some doodles, aye.

Things will get easier over time, but right now Jolla is a young company and we're the eager sidekicks that wish we had at least a clue to what's going on in this action drama. Innovation happens close to chaos and there's a lingering feel of disorder hanging around. That feeling comes from not knowing. Frustrating? Of course, but there has to be secrets. The mobile industry is fiercely competitive so to succeed some things have to remain hidden. Nagging for more info is just a waste of time. The Jolla doesn't leak...

So we create the missing parts in our heads. I've done so myself with the J3. We suggest some of those ideas to the forum. And then we get surprised by the response.

An added difficulty comes with the karma system. I've seen a few fora in my years on the net, but this is the first with that feature.

Unwritten social rules play out on the forum. Things we like get the thumbs up treatment and a few other posts fuel our anger instead. ...and it all depends on old habits.

We want new and fresh stuff and yet we want things to remain as they are.

...especially those unwritten rules. The reality is tough here for newcomers, sadly enough. The creative process is so close that the nearby chaos makes everything glow in the dark. It's an electronic aurora borealis. Wild, free and slightly unbelievable. It's the territory of the quick draw and even quicker mind. ...and the tension that fills the air makes people jumpy. Trigger happy.

Rules will of course help a bit, but too many (or too rigid) rules will take away too much of the creative spark that is needed to feed the innovation.

So the main tool has to be attitude.

Anyone on any of the ships in this armada sails together. Whether a golden tongue or a foul mouth we all get our say. Point your thumb down if you wish but do so with an argument.

We can find use for all hands here. Teach the new ones without weapons or fists. We are all still pirates looking for freedom.

Together.


I couldn't think of anything better to say. Sorry.

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answered 2014-12-05 02:18:51 +0300

simo gravatar image

updated 2014-12-05 02:25:50 +0300

Hi! Good questions, hope I can solve these being here for a while longer:

1) why do we need to answer as wiki community? what is hidden behind it?

  • Wiki's are used in polls, as they gather so much answers and votes. This is only to remove karma hunting
  • Wiki's are used in posts which are ment for everybody to edit, to make them better (for example the guidelines you mentioned)

2) Please show me the wiki utility.

  • No separate utility. Just a checkbox under the question edit - In all other ways, the editing works just like in any questions / answers

3) Is it possible to make it automatically when the thread creator informs that is a poll?

  • Currently no

4) If there is something why not ask for if it serious or not? suggest to change it and give a little bit time for it.

  • agreed

5) I know, every people have a lots of things to do. but let's time for the people to discover the site. All the informations to know how all work, is disperse everywhere. Need time to gather all. The problem was, that was obvious (not for me), that what i've was not fair form guidelines. The first that i read was the faq and the help, and some guidelines. And don't understand some things like, what is a poll, the wiki-community.

  • Let's improve the guidelines together, and if needed, make suggestions for a better help and wiki. They are all done together

6) why should some people give minus point if people want participate? participate is always positive, even if it's duplicate or in wrong form. The understanding of them is a little bit different. Minus points should just for contra-productive reaction ONLY. Minus points means unsociable, unfriendly.

  • I didn't even know about a karma penalty even after being here for a year - Is that info shared in the poll guidelines? In my opinion, if this kind of penalty is in use, it should be limited to 10% to not punish new members. And in overall, a guidance is alweays better than a punishment.

7) Give minus point to people who participate, but made wrong, is for me a form of laziness. Why people don't ask themself "what's wrong in the system that bring the people do wrong?" first, and ask then this one why?

  • agreed

8) guidelines are just to be found in this little link in features tag? why are they not in faq or help?

  • There could be a link to all guidelines in both FAQ and HELP. Possible @Eric?

9) guidelines link is not red and flashy in bold ?

  • Not possible in askbot, but hopefully a better linking makes them visible enough

10) For those who create a guideline, it is always good if there is an explanation why it is needed. All the people are not skilled on this kind website usability. that not obvious

  • TODO: Let's improve them together - feel free to edit
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@simo@eric: we have a problem with eric. i know now why eric don't react on our request. it seems to have a problem with the askbot machine, it seems to make a link to an other person. Eric didn't get our request. he is normally as user 2, and askbot make an other one with @xxx, because is near the same tjc nickname. do you see this link above to eric ? and a lots of other goes to the 4986. In Principe the tjc system should not accept the same nickname, even if letter case (lower or upper ) are different. now we have maybe some user confusion. maybe first you and eric should speak with the other one to give him the situation

cemoi71 ( 2014-12-15 11:20:33 +0300 )edit

@reviewjolla i take a little bit time to reread the thread here , and read other guidelines.
And i remarked that i didn't thank you for having reading my long thread and answering on it at every points. sorry....
But as a lot people tell, that's never too late for making good things. then, thank you for having take time to answer on it. :-)

cemoi71 ( 2016-04-10 23:25:09 +0300 )edit

oh god i did it indeed. i saw it in an other answer below, what an ape could i do.... i see now that i use tjc in an other art than for 1 year. funny.

cemoi71 ( 2016-04-10 23:29:30 +0300 )edit
1

answered 2015-09-13 22:58:46 +0300

chappi gravatar image

I see the point to regulate TJC and improve the quality. I also like that you step forward and suggest doing something. However (sorry to say):

  • I'm just too lazy to read and follow long complicated guidelines (but I try to stay reasonable and e.g. search before posting)
  • TJC is a 'jack of all trades' between help, knowhow, feature requests, bug'tracker', rant, announcements, etc. I don't think one could deeply 'attack' these different aspects with 'sharp' guidelines
  • karma hunting is a non problem. What should one do with such karma anyway? If a person 'disbehaves' he/she can be removed. But almost all people are very friendly here
  • TJC should stay fun. Nothing against guidelines, but they need to be relaxed suggestions imho

Sometimes I was thinking, if it wouldn't be better to divide the aspects, e.g.

  • bug-hunting --> github projects with issues
  • knowhow --> wiki or a stackoverflow like site or a documentation project
  • discussion, rant, announcements, etc --> discourse
  • feature requests --> uservoice

But I'm not sure if this would be better, for me TJC seems quite nice. (Except that there is no good modern bug tracker like github/gitlab - TJC bug posts most likely perish within the huge 'post volume')

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1

I agree with you fully, on each point, and thanks for each too. Grapping to one: "Fun", which is actually one of the most important reasons why the guidelineing needs some attention. The current set of guidelines is all but fun, a mixed list nobody is interested to visit - And as such, not helping the development of the portal, not helping on having great posts here. Let's work towards somewhat attractive guideline, which might be also fun enough for people to link it some more, whenever useful. Just maybe, we can turn even you to visit it (I'm personally lazy on visiting guides as well, love to learn things the hard way)

On dividing, it seems Jolla also wants to keep us here with everything. For example a decent bugtracker has been requested for long, and they've been silent on that for long :) This is actually the first attempt to write a guideline including bug reporting, not sure how that goes here, let's see. Maybe focus on the "fun" on that too :D

simo ( 2015-09-13 23:18:49 +0300 )edit
0

answered 2014-12-06 01:29:12 +0300

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This post is a wiki. Anyone with karma >75 is welcome to improve it.

updated 2014-12-08 10:33:26 +0300

cemoi71 gravatar image

Hello Simo, thank you very much for your answer and that you take it really serious. so

1) why do we need to answer as wiki community? what is hidden behind it?

Wiki's are used in polls, as they gather so much answers and votes. This is only to remove karma hunting
Wiki's are used in posts which are ment for everybody to edit, to make them better (for example the guidelines you mentioned)

Wiki in reality are thus not a specific thread as knowhow, but more than fast one which become a lots of reaction, as answer, vote, suggestions right?

5) I know, every people have a lots of things to do. but let's time for the people to discover the site. All the informations to know how all work, is disperse everywhere. Need time to gather all. The problem was, that was obvious (not for me), that what i've was not fair form guidelines. The first that i read was the faq and the help, and some guidelines. And don't understand some things like, what is a poll, the wiki-community.

Let's improve the guidelines together, and if needed, make suggestions for a better help and wiki. They are all done together

Why not, but i need some time to read the points again. Then i suggest when the time comes, we work point to point here on (by this current thread). Or should we do it apart (per mail for example)?

6) why should some people give minus point if people want participate? participate is always positive, even if it's duplicate or in wrong form. The understanding of them is a little bit different. Minus points should just for contra-productive reaction ONLY. Minus points means unsociable, unfriendly.

I didn't even know about a karma penalty even after being here for a year - Is that info shared in the poll guidelines? In my opinion, if this kind of penalty is in use, it should be limited to 10% to not punish new members. And in overall, a guidance is always better than a punishment.

I didn't see it in guidlines, just + points attributions in faq. But I'm not really agree with you. This kind of attribution should not be done, if the person want to participate constructively in the thread. Maybe in case that someone else tells him to change the things he did because it is not guidlines friendly, and stay in his position, we could reconsider that...

9) guidelines link is not red and flashy in bold ?

Not possible in askbot, but hopefully a better linking makes them visible enough

asknots seems to be a mix between html and python. Maybe it is possible to reformat the fonts of featured tags. And the background too.

10) For those who create a guideline, it is always good if there is an explanation why it is needed. All the people are not skilled on this kind website usability. that not obvious

TODO: Let's improve them together - feel free to edit

That will be not so easy, put my changes or my remarks directly in the guideline thread, may destruct its integrity as rule. Needs a good organisation to. Where and how could we discuss about each of it. And the best is that we can ask for details to guidelines creators, and are agrees to make some changes it it's needed to. In short way explained, i have no problem to edit, if i present my changes and the peoples are agreed (i means guidelines creators an some moderators).

ps: i miss tags knowhow, how we could change the format of the text by answer or thread input. Some html tags, and wiki-like tags seem to work with askbots. Will not bad to have a small list of it in help section.

Have a nice weekend

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Would it be ok to add any further answers to your new questions editing them directly above, turning this into a "discussion pad" for a while? If so, please edit this to wiki, enabling everybody to add.

(Normally any further discussions takes place in the comments thread, but I guess that either way is good in this type of collective question)

simo ( 2014-12-07 22:40:51 +0300 )edit

hello simo, yes naturally should be as wiki, sorry. now it is converted into this. hmm i'm sorry for what you means with "discussion pads" for a while, didn't understand what you mean. Do you thinks it is better to make an answer for each points of the handled questions?

cemoi71 ( 2014-12-08 10:39:05 +0300 )edit

Good morning! I just ment that your answer could be used as a platform for discussion - so no need for separate answers. Now that it's a wiki, I hope others edit in their opinions as well.

simo ( 2014-12-08 10:53:21 +0300 )edit
0

answered 2014-12-10 00:01:42 +0300

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updated 2014-12-10 00:01:42 +0300

cemoi71 gravatar image

So for my part i want to react for the point 6). I have already read about some guideline Point. First, this one Deselecting answers revised from @pulsar. Id didn't understand why is it a guideline point. That is in mater of fact a problem., a big one which join my point of you, about point action which could be negative to a person even if he act for a good reason. I understand his incomprehension.

If pulsar is agree too, This point will be better for me to be rewritten in form that it touch all the point attribution concept. As i already said, pint are just a quantification to give a feeling how act a person. If it contribute for community. or if he is contra-productive. It should not be easy to give point less. Asking first if the person think seriously is more friendly. Maybe he could ask for help to do in right way. I can't understand, that point going left even if the person contribute positive. For example, a negative vote of a non-constructive question (i have already seen one but i don't find it anymore), is then good for community. the action should not be point with negative.

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answered 2014-12-11 22:51:12 +0300

this post is marked as community wiki

This post is a wiki. Anyone with karma >75 is welcome to improve it.

updated 2014-12-12 02:31:16 +0300

cemoi71 gravatar image

@simo @eric: I found a new problem on the organisation on together website, and i ask my why no one has already seen it, or i didn't find a thread upon it. In reality after some thinking, it seems NOT to be a bug or concept-failure of askbot. So now to the fact. I observed that for some typical threads (the problem especially for polls i think), inside the threads there are vote counter for each answers. But it does not reflect the counter of the thread itself. Inside a thread could be more vote as the one of the thread itself. It reflect not truly the thread as it should do.

The example that i can give you is this one [Poll] Jolla 2 OtherHalf colours? As you can see the thread has 12 votes, but inside alone the cobalt answer as currently 17 votes!!! You can't tell me that is normal, that the thread has less votes that an answer which is inside!!! is really stupid i think. It is not a wonder if vattuvarg disappointed about the non success of his poll. The votes are less as it should do, and people don't react because of less changing in its votes...

One solution, would be for me that, a kind of guideline based on attitude for each one who vote inside a thread,give then a vote to the thread in accordance of his positiv or negative if he is against the thread or not.

I try to make a proposal for the guideline.-..

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The thread counter is for triage, more or less. It's a way for people to tell others that *I want an answer to this too". The most voted questions get extra attention and a higher priority from Jolla. ...or experts among us.

Within each thread there are answers. Good answers get votes and is a simple form of quality control. Even if the question might be completely obvious a good answer can still be worth more byte by byte than a pile of bitcoins. Difficult questions might need more than one good answer and the votes might be the only way of knowing the quality of each answer.

So voting for both question and answer(s) makes sense. Adding them up would mix all signals and make all numbers meaningless. Triage by the administrators would be impossible and finding the right answer would be equally difficult for the users of the forum.

The karma system still baffles me at times but it seems to work.

vattuvarg ( 2014-12-11 23:41:08 +0300 )edit

that's right, but the counter between the answers and the thread should be consistent. if ind not normal that an answer of a thread get 18 votes (18 people like it) and the thread itself just 12 (12 like it), that make no sense, et make statistic wrong.

cemoi71 ( 2014-12-12 00:12:03 +0300 )edit
1

@cemoi71 Just as you mentioned me on the answer: I'm ok with the current calcs. IMO, vote for Q = vote for the importance of the matter, vote for A = supporting the idea/solution/suggestion presented

simo ( 2014-12-12 06:38:05 +0300 )edit

I found threads with bad question and good answers. Or there is a good comment (e.g. above). When I voting the good posts I will not honored bad posts.

utkiek ( 2014-12-12 19:02:46 +0300 )edit

@utkiek: ok you take care that you handle the answer and the thread. I think it is good if we could vote negative without bumping kharma points down, if the stuff try to be constructive. it should just inform if it is good or not. kharma point are for me an information how well has the person according to the community. inform if she constructive or not. (and we comes again to the issue of kharma point...)

cemoi71 ( 2014-12-12 19:23:03 +0300 )edit
0

answered 2015-09-12 21:12:25 +0300

this post is marked as community wiki

This post is a wiki. Anyone with karma >75 is welcome to improve it.

updated 2015-09-18 08:10:17 +0300

simo gravatar image

I've started a project on the guidelines, let's discuss that here (to keep the new guide clean of any comments) First, I'd like to share some motives why I started this project, and why I started it right now:

  • TJC is getting a big group of new, unfamiliar users soon, including many countries where Jolla hasn't been available earlier
  • Current guideline list is a non-attractive mess of posts with different layouts and outdated data. We could edit those, but after browsing through each, poersoinally I found it simply easier to start a new project
  • Better guideline, attractive enough, up to date, might be useful to link to when the new questions by new users starts to roll in
  • End result is not supposed to change how TJC works or restrict user freedom. Guides are supposed to be guides, not rules like few of them currently are.

Please join if you find it worth it :)

EDIT: Each older guideline now has a dedicated answer to handle the progress there.

EDIT2: There's been so few comments on this project that I feel it's not worth it to continue. It's not something I don't want to do just by myself, as without others it misses a common goal & DIT spirit. So, leaving the process for now. Updating the schedule, leaving stage 1 open in case if someone at some point finds there's something to do.

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@simo@reviewjolla may i ask the stupid question? are you simo behind the two tjc-account here?
Is just to verify an obvious observation...
And i would like to discuss with you about some points (and one particularly). if you want....

cemoi71 ( 2016-04-07 16:21:53 +0300 )edit

You may, and yes those are mine. For personal chat I can send you my xmpp via email to my blog address or via DM on Twitter. But if your topic fits as a public discussion here, that would be great by me as well.

reviewjolla ( 2016-04-07 16:50:33 +0300 )edit

hmmm for public discussions by you, means reviewjolla or simo tjc account? or never-mind which one...

cemoi71 ( 2016-04-07 17:57:24 +0300 )edit

do mind: My old account started to gather so much notifications (=having red mail envelope on top all the time) that I'm currently better reached using this @reviewjolla mention. So, what's this about?

reviewjolla ( 2016-04-07 18:23:24 +0300 )edit

ok.. first, thank very much for the answer.
concerning guidelines for answer to a question here I would suggest that an answer should handle on the subject given on the main thread question....
Sometimes i see that people answer nearby of the main question, for suggesting a workaround of it, without to handle directly or trying to solve it. According to the person, not mentioning it would be a problem... That's right but for this it is possible to comment.

Here i have a concrete example that right happened today on this thread.
One proposed as answer to opt-out to the early access program so that after this, the user will be proposed to downgrade sfos to the last release and the bug won't be appears.
That's right, that is an important info that for those who want to step out of the early access program it is possible to get the last release of the system. But it doesn't handle the main problem that a bug appears and should be observe on a futur release software. That as for me just an effect to pollute the main thread, and not give a real fix. However the info is important.

Then i want first to discuss about the point "answer to a question" and in which form... words are missing about it to me.
Do you see what i mean?

cemoi71 ( 2016-04-07 19:24:07 +0300 )edit
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Asked: 2014-12-05 02:04:11 +0300

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Last updated: Sep 18 '15