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[request][community] Please hold criticism of SFOS2.0 until it's actually released

asked 2015-03-07 21:25:54 +0300

t-lo gravatar image

updated 2015-03-09 09:17:42 +0300

TJC is getting noisy on assumptions. We've seen very brief cuts from what will be the final product, so actually, we don't know enough to make meaningful comments or requests. The Jolla phone (the 1.0) works as a whole - a single gesture might make not much sense, but the sum of the Jolla User Experience makes every piece fall in its place quite neatly. There's no reason to believe 2.0 will be any different.

And no, it won't be too late if we hold back our input until after the release, until we've seen the thing. _Unlike_ the smartphone giants Jolla has proven to pay close attention to its community, again and again (even though, dear Reader, your personal request may have been ignored on the occasion - I experienced the same, and I feel you). There's no reason to believe that we, the users, won't continue to enjoy this co-operation.

At this point we're filling TJC with rumors, we're generating noise, and we're generally not helping with finishing either the tablet or the 2.0 release. So please, let those people work.

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I think it is right to discuss all concerns now. Unfortunately there is a lot of guessing, we have to pick up features by watching videos. I am disappointed that Jolla did not inform the community about all the changes 2.0 brings.

Stefanix ( 2015-03-07 22:12:41 +0300 )edit

I too like to discuss about the upcoming UI etc. But just shooting down design and ideas, because I don't like this. is a bad argument, as, id I remember correctly, you @Stefanix said in another topic, But what comes to the OP, I don't like to speculate on rumours, I do like to make noise and we should make noise. That's the idea of TJC - hear us we have feedback and ideas! But, as always - keep it civilized. :)

raketti ( 2015-03-07 22:44:00 +0300 )edit

In general, I like the direction things are going, as I can see from the demos from the MWC. I have no complaint at all. I can see why people are getting nervous, however, and I think it would make sense from Jolla to clarify what is going on, and what is actually being implemented. I think that would calm down most people.

I understand Jolla wanting to keep things under cover until now, to make a bigger splash... but if you want to "do things together" you have to share. And there is no reason to keep quiet about things that are already public knowledge, so it would be nice to see an article on the Jolla blog about the changes and the reasoning behind it, and maybe an update on the roadmap.

Also, I think (and really hope) that the notification screen and the ambience framework will gain public APIs third party developers will be able to use. It would be nice to document them as soon as possible so that applications can be updated.

mikelima ( 2015-03-08 01:32:46 +0300 )edit

I hate that new ui concept. The old one was just perfect. I cant believe that there are people not understanding it. If thats the only case then teach them to understand it in a better guide than to go 3 steps back. If we do not make some noise now I think it will be late. If the ui changes as it is shown I'll leave the ship when my current phone dies.

NuklearFart ( 2015-03-09 01:38:58 +0300 )edit

2 Answers

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answered 2015-03-07 22:04:54 +0300

nodevel gravatar image

updated 2015-03-07 22:25:23 +0300

I disagree. The changes that have been presented (the end of cover gestures and events view overlay) are so fundamental, that there is almost no possibility to change them afterwards.

Jolla would shoot themselves in the foot if they changed it after it is released, because getting used to such changes takes time.

So no, I think now is the best time to raise our concerns.

PS: This site is called 'Together' and I have seen the term DIT (Do It Together) around a lot. Commenting on the current progress and presenting other ideas (and participating on the code, but it is currently not possible in case of 'lipstick-jolla-home-qt5') is exactly what DIT is. Not "wait until they finish it and then criticise it" which you are suggesting.

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My concern is not on SF2.0 : Stefano Mosconi's presentation on the Phone was very convincing. But on what was not shown : With Sailfish Secure Jolla comes on the Business field and there, the two other contenders for the third OS have presented a whole environment : MS Office as on the desktop on one side and the Blackberry experience suite on the other side.

Nokia7710 ( 2015-03-07 23:47:21 +0300 )edit

@nodevel My argument is that you don't know the UX from the tiny scraps that pop up in reviews now. I.e. from a few minutes of video there's no way to get a thorough impression of how the tablet UX handles. Why? Because it was the same with the Jolla phone: You can watch demo videos telling you "the gestures will become natural" all day, still you will never be able to 'get' it. Only after you use the phone and the gestures become part of your muscle memory you're able to tell.

So my argument (which you didn't respond to) is that people criticize tiny parts of a whole they cannot yet understand.

t-lo ( 2015-03-08 09:34:38 +0300 )edit

@t-lo And I believe that this assumption is incorrect. You may have observed it just from the videos, but I've also discussed it with Jaakko Roppola on Twitter and I believe I have quite a clear vision of the changes.

There are no 'tiny parts' - it's a fundamental change.

To sum it up: I understand the reasons for most of the changes (the current UI didn't allow for landscape mode and also wasn't very UI-scaling-friendly), but they are a clear compromise (as Jaakko said on Twitter, SailfishOS 1.x will be faster to use and get things done on the phone than SailfishOS 2.x) - and I believe that some things could be improved upon (for example the fact that SailfishOS 2.x currently has the most difficult way to check notifications and get back to the app out of all mobile operating systems).

You should read the discussion as it brings some light on the changes.

nodevel ( 2015-03-08 11:45:26 +0300 )edit

To clarify: I know that designing system UI's is a very difficult task and I understand there will always have to be compromises, once you scale your OS between different form factors. But when compromises come into place, it is more important than ever to raise your voice ('criticism' as you say) to make sure that the changes will suit most of the users.

That's why it's good to discuss such changes and I agree with @Stefanix that they should've started the discussion before showing it off at MWC.

To illustrate how hard these compromises are: I've been trying to figure out a way to keep the cover action gestures in the new UI, but I haven't come to a solution that would be as good as the current approach in SailfishOS 1.x, which can't be used in 2.x.

nodevel ( 2015-03-08 11:55:38 +0300 )edit

answered 2015-03-08 23:36:35 +0300

Neo gravatar image

updated 2015-03-08 23:48:59 +0300

Fully agree with @nodevel.

What I find strange regarding this topic is what Mr. Stefano Mosconi said in an interview at MWC. My Italian is not good but that much I could understand: Mr. Mosconi said that "... the UI is completely redesigned and improved thanks to the feedback of the Community which is huge and supporting..." (please go here to see what Mr. Mosconi said on this topic).

I wasn't aware that the Community participated in redesigning of the UI for SFOS 2.0. If someone out there has any knowledge about that, would you please care to elaborate and explain?

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Well people did propose quite a lot of possible UI changes to accommodate more running applications, using side swipes for ambiance switching for something else, etc. So maybe they used that as input even though there was actually no official acknowledgment to any of those suggestions AFAIK.

MartinK ( 2015-03-08 23:56:09 +0300 )edit

This should really be a comment on nodevel's answer ;) However: your traslation is more or less correct, but what Stefano is implying is that they listened to the feedback of the community and took action based on it, not that the community was literally involved/participating. A little but fundamental nuance. He's not saying "community asks, we exactly do what they want", but "community shares opinions, we take that into account".

Orologiaio ( 2015-03-08 23:57:14 +0300 )edit

One thing to take into concideration is our communitys request for landscape mode. I feel the SF2 UI is adapted to have landscape more sensefull then it would be to just turn SF1.x by 90 degrees. Then there is this big portion of users coming from n9 and pointing out app switching superiority of harmattan wherever possible. I am totally willing to give the ui a fresh start once sf2 is available. This whole "situation" is created by us again not realizing that Jolla is indeed a small team. Democratic decision on too low level kills productivity. I salute Jolla to have the GUTS to introduce theyr interpretation of our wishes and TEST major new ideas in 2.0. I beg everyone threatening to drop off the ship if 2.0 does not fit theyr personal needs "temporarily" to further contribute and have faith in being able to shape 3.0. closer to their needs. Nothing is set in stone, version numbers define milestones not an endgoal... Upfront communication nevertheless would be very welcome. How to achive without killing productivity? No company ever tried that before, so now is the time to shape jolla into that direction a little bit which could be the positve outcome of this discussion.

mosen ( 2015-03-09 07:57:08 +0300 )edit
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Asked: 2015-03-07 21:25:54 +0300

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Last updated: Mar 08 '15