So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish

asked 2017-11-16 19:49:45 +0200

271 ●6 ●8 ●12

updated 2017-11-17 14:17:40 +0200

This is very sad but I have to admit that I will order another NOKIA 6 to replace my two week old Xperia X with Sailfish.

After I had two Jolla phones in the past that had their share of issues and did not stay long in my hands, I thought with the Sony hardware it might be worse to do another try.

Installation was easy while still undocumented it worked on the Mac easily. So far so good.

The phone seem to work I could place and receive calls. The UI is sluggish at times but one could live with that. As usual I did not check together.jolla.com before buying the Xperia X - my fault. The software was paid by my Jolla tablet "credits". But the journey started to be a hard one. Office 365 Exchange Mail does not get pushed - well sometimes yes sometimes no. IMAP just does not refresh after for hours. Manual Updates does sometimes do the trick sometimes not...

WiFi tethering is not working, I learned the hard way when I would have needed it.

My demands for a smartphone are low: phone, sms, email, tethering, otp (that works to my surprise with SailOTP - even scanning the 2D barcode sometimes works). Signal would have been nice, but does not seem to work correct. No other apps required. But after all those year still not having a functional Exchange client and IMAP not working is very, very disappointing. If I read all the other issues on this forum frustration is the only outcome.

I wonder what one person could to to get this resolved? Giving up on Jolla for the 3rd time and running into the hands of the incumbent Google or Apple is very frustrating but seems to remain the only choice at this point - or is there a future for this product on the horizon? Is there any reason continue the suffering just for being different?

Looking forward to any feedbacks and ways to get out of this Google/Apple duopoly.

UPDATE November 17h, 2017

Dear all!

Thanks for the many comments and technical solutions.

I was aware of the WiFi workaround and I am a command prompt addict but certainly while travelling and needing access to tethering. I just restarted the Xperia X to get some emails - my business depends on it. Did not update in any way anymore...now I see the familiar "Sync problem" on the tile view - but mail is arriving.

I wanted to raise this Jolla issue as general issue and not a detailed technical discussion. I wanted to see if there are reasonable ways to fix the too many issues with Jolla. Hey Jolla officials - how about an official statement?

How about sponsored development sprints - I just yesterday sponsored a FLOS project on my dayjob with Euro 15K - cause we and the community gets something back. So where are new ideas? What's the price to fix the Email client? The price to fix WLAN? The price to fix XYZ? Is it just a money issue?

Jolla need to come up with some better ideas - girls in trams and train don't use Jolla - no Instagram, no Whatsapp hence this is not the target market. An yesThe target market are tech savvy people who want to make a difference in the Google/Apple duopoly. Who want privacy statements and people solving issues and a phone that has working basics.

For now my weekend project it to put Android Oreo on the Xperia X while I wait for the NOKIA 6 (if Android - then only Stock-Android) to arrive. Pre-Order a Puri.sm Libre 5 and hope the world is still up and running in 2019 when they plan to deliver - yes, I have not learned anything from losing money on the Jolla Tablet.

That brings me to: So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish

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Is there any reason for this thread? Do you ask a serious question that we can give a useful answer to? Or can we close it as "too subjective" right away?

bennyV ( 2017-11-16 20:07:22 +0200 )edit

I think he simply wants to express his dissapointment. And I can agree because main issues, adressed here at together, are not solved since month and even years. I have a Jolla1 and JollaC phone, but now I really bemoan to pay for Sailfish X again.

SaimenSays ( 2017-11-16 20:31:05 +0200 )edit

Yes! This is a serious question! What can one do to fix this? I think this community does need to do something! After I failed with Jolla-1 and Jolla-C we are still at the point that Xperia X is not even a minimal-feature smartphone. What does it need? More developers? More money? More of what?

RemyG ( 2017-11-16 20:35:29 +0200 )edit

I can only say that my Xperia X is the best Sailfish OS device I ever had.

It can't of course solve long standing issues by itself.

There is some Sailfish X specific breakage/missing stuff (like WiFi tethering), but that's being actively worked on and should be fixed by an update relatively soon.

All in all I can say I'm very happy with Sailfish X - it's not perfect, but what is ? :)

MartinK ( 2017-11-16 20:39:00 +0200 )edit

I don't have the problems with IMAP and Exchange, I have rather high demands for my SailfishX and don't think I'm suffering at all ;-) - but another question: Why do you want to buy a Nokia 6 and not keep the Xperia X with Android? The Xperia X has the better specs, especially a faster cpu (Nokia 6's slower snapdragon 430 doesn't peform very well with the 1080p screen). Sailfish OS (also Android) performs much better on the Xperia X than Android on the Nokia 6. Just a little advice, since I know both devices well...

molan ( 2017-11-16 21:37:59 +0200 )edit

5 Answers

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answered 2017-11-17 00:13:36 +0200

melg01
6069 ●57 ●75 ●68

updated 2017-11-17 00:45:05 +0200

@Remy: Thank for your very true input!

After over a month of Sailfish X on the Xperia X (nice device, nothing against it) and 4 years as a faithful Jolla 1 user and evangelist I was about to write a similar note. Jolla, and sadly also some very engaged community users here, seem not to realize, that any good mobile phone is also be used for business. Unless you define it just as a hobbyist and hacker system (btw, i'm very comfy on the command line, but that's not the point).

The requirements may vary, of course. But in terms of using it for daily business tasks, I just ask for getting back basic and reliable functionality that was lost with the update like:

Tethering, which is a basic feature - how else do you work on your laptop when abroad and without WiFi available?
Bluetooth, while better than expected, still not at the level of Jolla 1
Native smb/cifs and nfs support - you sometimes need to access some document from some share at business or home (through VPN). This has been lost as well since the new device.
Non working native Dropbox and other cloud storage support
Native maps. And no, I refuse to install an Android app for this, and I don't care about your licensing issues with Here (and yes, i know the hack to get the old version back). Integrate some OpenStreet app or anything similar, but do it, because it's a basic need nowadays when travelling. (Btw, the GPS positioning is also worse, but this might be my subjective feeling).

Sorry for being somewhat upset, but it's a poor sign of customer care when "downgrading" or "delaying" functionality that was already available. I don't want to hear excuses about deadlines and time: I just don't want to pay for banana software. After having made the mistake to rely on my Xeperia/Sailfish X as my only device on a recent business travel, I deeply regretted it. Now I have to travel with a second (android) device because of the above mentioned needs, and I feel utterly stupid being forced to use an android phone for things that previously worked well. I still support you and don't have given up hope, but if it doesn't improve soon, I will give up on Jolla/Sailfish definitely.

Other old issues which are cumbersome, reported since long date, and still not solved and should be addressed in user space and not through hacks, are:

poor native calendar application - see all the issues around
no native ToDo/Tasks app syncing with Exchange and others
poor native mail app, starting with not being able to forward attachments (and in-text pictures) or to open zip attachments and many other things
a poor, non configurable keyboard
no consistent cut/copy/paste functionality across the whole system and all apps
poor office document handling, including pdf
bad or incomplete caldav/carddav support (yes, I know, there are community ppl working on it)
no privacy and security concept and implementation: monitoring/controlling app and connection security, as well as support for encryption for the filesystem and/or in several native apps
no separated volume control settings for sounds/music, notifications, alarms and so on
no comment/text field in contacts
no way to edit/improve manually the predictive text input
And lots of maybe not business-critical but still basic apps which feel old and lacking functionality by todays standards, like the mediaplayer, file browser, gallery, photo app, and others

Nevertheless, I will finally acknowledge that some important business functionality is working fine (at least for me), like WPA2 enterprise, VPN (although not perfect yet), and yes, also the (somewhat limited) exchange connection and the aliendalvik/android (just for 2-3 critical business apps).

This was not a ranting. Just sad or even desperated to see and feel that Jolla/Sailfish will probably fail, not because of the device, the concept, the OS, or even the missing store for pay-apps - but just because of ignoring quality and basic needs (and often bad communication too).

Jolla, don't forget it, it's about business use !!! Yours and ours.

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that any good mobile phone is also be used for business.

Interesting. I've been a smartphone user since 2002. Symbian, Maemo/MeeGo, Android, SailfishOS... I've never ever used one of my devices for business. And I doubt that all these 16 year old girls I see on the underground with their phones are business users, either. Maybe you re-think your POV once more. :)

ossi1967 ( 2017-11-17 10:20:23 +0200 )edit

example: My business use consists of performing phone calls, viewing syncing events, addresses, tasks, SMS, MMS, eMail, Whatsapp, and some map use. All of it working fine. (PIM functions and sync could be better) Big stuff like PDF, Office Apps etc. don't get done on my phone. I'd rather watch 16year old gals, on tram and bus, in my case.

danfin ( 2017-11-17 11:37:20 +0200 )edit

Since Jolla is aiming or already dveloping for corporate use in Russia and China, they better get those basic business-relevant functions to work.

Spark ( 2017-11-17 14:37:24 +0200 )edit

@danfin - https://together.jolla.com/question/167763/native-zoomable-timeline/?answer=173444#post-id-173444

vattuvarg ( 2017-11-17 14:56:25 +0200 )edit

@vattuvarg - great idea, I'd like that. However my SaifishX will, not even after reset, sync with my Google account (which I use cause to-do list), but I'd also accept a zoomable timeline on my Jolla C of course.

danfin ( 2017-11-17 16:11:39 +0200 )edit

answered 2017-11-17 13:51:05 +0200

micha77
186 ●1 ●4 ●8

I can understand the points and the examples described are rightly listed. If you come from another system or use a different system in parallel, it is obvious that sailfish OS is reduced to the bare minimum. You can make a call, use email, sms, view pictures, even some Android apps work such as Here WeGo, which I appreciate. Imo the whole situation is owed to the available capital and thus directly dependent on the existing staff. I think Jolla simply hasn't enough developers. So you have to be a fan of the OS and love to use it. What bothers me most is the poor quality of the Sony camera after flashing, the non-functioning of the existing hardware, e.g. the fingerprint sensor etc. Also some native apps, like gallery, look like they have not been developed for years. All these points are standard nowadays and it will be very difficult to be competitive without offering them.

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answered 2017-11-18 00:48:17 +0200

vattuvarg

13872 ●197 ●289 ●323

https://wordsmith.social/...

Trivia
"So long, and thanks for all the fish" is not the final book in the H2G2 series.

Hopefully there's more to this story too.

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@vattuvag: Correct - Jolla remains "Mostly Harmless" to its competitors - and that seems sadly to be the end of the story.

RemyG ( 2017-11-18 12:22:42 +0200 )edit

More trivia
Marvin is not the main character of the H2G2 series.

vattuvarg ( 2017-11-18 13:01:46 +0200 )edit

answered 2017-11-17 14:34:55 +0200

tortoisedoc

11414 ●172 ●269 ●287

http://kastlunger.blogspo...

updated 2017-11-17 14:40:35 +0200

This all makes me wonder; where's the product management in this? This is a geek's tool / toy / phone (call it whatever), but in order to survive just putting geek stuff on more known hardware (XPeria) won't cut it, it has to evolve into a real product any person (geeky or not) can use in order to grow out of the "geeks corner" into mainstream audience. It's inevitable, or it will die. And don't come up with the "chicken and egg" problem, that does not stand. Its the sum of both, product and hw, so unless it goes hand in hand, it will fail. Jolla has putted alot of effort (all they can share) on the integration side for HW it seems to me; now it's time to start thinking about the product again.

Jolla had a (apparently very good) product manager (Dillon, as well as others im sure); am I the only one thinking it's time to get product development back in focus?

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Could you give more specific examples?

vattuvarg ( 2017-11-17 14:49:15 +0200 )edit

@vattuvarg I dont understand. What do you mean by examples? If you mean product issues, dig through tjc if you need examples (VPN, Speaker issues, Mail are a few that come to mind)

tortoisedoc ( 2017-11-17 15:13:57 +0200 )edit

What’s wrong with a geek‘s tool/toy/phone?

Apart from that the functionality of SailfishOS would surely serve the needs of most of the normal users out there - the problem is more about the the geeky reviewers from all the big magazines and blogs and ... who want a phone with highest specs plus an OS with every functionality out of the box plus 3 million apps which can raplace the already built in apps with the same functionality but a different UI or name ... and therefore they keep writing bad reviews about everything that is just ok

And that’s the thing about Salfish the UI design is great but the apps are just ok and ok is the new bad as the people trust the companies and magazines that they need nothing less than top class, polished, shiny apps and at least an update per week - else the app is outdated, useless and rubbish ...

SailfishOS isn’t perfect but it works - and don’t forget, no big companies are involved that only want your data ... for that I’m happy to have a just working E-Mail app wich needs a workaround every now and then but still receives and sends emails - btw I never hat a problem with forwarding attachments ...

elastic ( 2017-11-17 17:51:44 +0200 )edit

See, that's what I mean here. The world in Jolla seems to end @ the terminal. But theres alot more to it! Also, please do not blame the developers for "just ok" apps. No sir. People put their time and effort in these, and for what? Nothing. Also please keep in mind there are apps made by Jolla; which also have issues.

tortoisedoc ( 2017-11-17 21:30:13 +0200 )edit

A different user experience might be a good thing at times. I love the gestures-instead-of-buttons philosophy of the Sailfish UI.

vattuvarg ( 2017-11-17 22:48:14 +0200 )edit

answered 2017-11-17 16:06:08 +0200

Nekron
3162 ●47 ●60 ●62

WLAN tethering has been fixed 21 days ago in Sony kernel: https://github.com/mer-hybris/android_kernel_sony_msm/pull/3

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Oups. The "fix" seems to require some Potter-ish knowledge. I read the link, and couldn't imagine what it was about. I would LOVE to have some WLAN tethering, Can plsease somebody explain what we have to do ?

Chap ( 2017-11-17 17:47:28 +0200 )edit

If you were creating a "community build" image you could incorporate the feature now and in due course after sufficient testing will probably appear in an EA (Early access) release.

aspergerguy ( 2017-11-17 21:46:04 +0200 )edit

So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish

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