Reflections about a future covid 19 app? [off-topic]

asked 2020-04-13 12:21:39 +0200

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updated 2020-04-13 12:33:39 +0200

Maus
2032 ●20 ●42 ●54

Currently, in France there are a lot of discussions regarding the implementation of a future application to combat COVID19 and more generally against epidemics.

For example there is this excellent article (in French but the page offers a translation in the language of your choice via Google translation). I am also thinking of the agreement between Apple and Google on the pandemic.

Of course, this future application (or these future applications) will be likely to be offered for Android and iOS only. I also understood that this future app would use bluetooth technology. Even if, as far as I am concerned, I am extremely reserved about the merits of such an application, I fear that "social pressure" will be enough to make it almost compulsory tomorrow.

However, unless i have misunderstood the limitations of Sailfish OS, our smartphones would be incompatible. When the times come, does Jolla plan to resume the sources of this future software, still to come, to allow a deployment of a native application on our smartphones? Or to have the compatibility of Sailfish OS with similar applications in countries outside the European community using bluetooth technology?

And sorry for my poor English, I used Yandex and Google translations.

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The question has been closed for the following reason "question is off-topic or not relevant" by rozgwi
close date 2020-04-26 18:32:55.584544

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2

Spam Hunter ( 2020-04-13 13:11:05 +0200 )edit

3

Yes, i saw this post but I'm talking about the upcoming application which will interact with all the other smartphones and which will be able to say if in my day I ran into people with covid19 (or another contagious disease tomorrow). Typically, it could become practically compulsory during deconfinement period.

mips_tux ( 2020-04-13 13:26:41 +0200 )edit

2

Let's make a better app for SailfishOS. Bluetooth seems to be the only tecnology to give the distance wanted. If I have understood right phones are paired in the process. I wouldn't like to see that. To use varying bluetooth name as an identification code would be nice but it might have some side effects.

Rikujolla ( 2020-04-13 13:48:25 +0200 )edit

11

How about no?

Kopekenscheich ( 2020-04-13 15:47:30 +0200 )edit

5

no. never. what for? no one really believes that an app could stop spreading viri. there is absolutely no evidence, not in china, not in taiwan, signapure, korea, not anywhere.

apozaf ( 2020-04-13 21:05:37 +0200 )edit

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answered 2020-04-14 17:57:09 +0200

rozgwi
4618 ●49 ●77 ●79

updated 2020-04-14 21:11:07 +0200

Well maybe it would be better if people were keeping all their 2 cents in their pocket until there is more objective information to be talking about.
but anyway: Here's what I understand and think about this.

Oh my, this is gonna be way off topic...

first of all: lets be pragmatic.
I doubt there are resources at Jolla for such a native App right now. The new release is still EA and there might be bug fixing work and other aftermath.
I can only guess about the general situation in Sweden. Last week I read there were not yet any limitations or even bans to leave the house over there. This might have changed, didn’t catch any news about this over Easter.. (scratch that. Apparently I have no clue about geography and certainly none about the situation in Finnland.) Personally I do not think that Jolla or any other companies should be responsible here but the health institutes. And with these an Android App will be as good as it gets.
I understand the skepticism but I feel that few take the time to research about the PEP-PT initiative properly. The way I understood this:
- the App is not supposed to cure or get rid of the virus in any way. It’s purpose is to make tracking infection chains manageable again. Because keeping in check who met who and might have infected whom for 300.000 (random number!) people is just humanly impossible
- the way it works is by evaluating bluetooth signal strengths. No coupling needed for this. From the signal strength a distance can be interpolated. The technique certainly will have to be fine tuned. But it's a start. At least there will be a more or less decent way to tell who came sufficiently close to a person that has been infected and thus needs to be informed about the potential risk.
- anonymity is implemented by changing personal IDs every 30 seconds and keeping only track of other IDs that came into close range. Of course, the App would have to log my IDs on my own phone in order to know if I was close to an infected person at a given point in time and to alert me then. But on any other phone this ID is just 'Person X that was close to me at one point and at that time had this ID'.
  As far as I can see, that’s pretty anonymous.
Don’t know anything about what Google and Apple do. but actually I'd want that to be audited.
What governments will do politically with the App and any obligation or advisal about its usage - well that’s their decisions. Can't do anything about really in most countries right now

So to sum up:
I think it’s not Jollas task to implement this even though it’s a good thing to have it. Native support probably won’t happen unless some community developers pick it up.
If you don’t like the idea, don’t use the App. Peer pressure and social obligation are a problem but nothing live threatening. You can ignore it. However having an opinion is ok and well but don’t make it an ideology, especially not in front of this pandemic that needs to be handled somehow. And to the contrary of peer pressure, the disease is live threatening to many.
Personally I don't know if I will use such an App. But if the reasoning is plausible and scientific foundation is there and I am able to understand it it: won't hurt me much to lose battery life to Bluetooth and Android Support in order to run it

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Isn't Jolla a finnish company? Why were you talking about Sweden?

Firefox84 ( 2020-04-14 19:40:05 +0200 )edit

1

cause I'm stupid. of course its Finnland...

rozgwi ( 2020-04-14 21:06:40 +0200 )edit

tracking people is good for hunter too, even if the target is anonym....

cemoi71 ( 2020-04-15 02:48:44 +0200 )edit

this app don't help for me. spending resource just for knowing, when the time is to act conscientiously. resource are needed for things more important.

cemoi71 ( 2020-04-15 02:52:02 +0200 )edit

That is not anonymous. The owner of every wifi you have connected to can deanonymize you. If your phone transmits something else (think about those nice "John Smith's Iphone" networks), people can denaonymize you.

Federico ( 2020-04-16 16:56:26 +0200 )edit

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answered 2020-04-14 17:26:06 +0200

debeliu
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updated 2020-04-14 17:28:18 +0200

I am also thinking about the question.

Because contact tracing system proposals use Bluetooth LE, it's quite sure that an Android app cannot work on Sailfish due to Bluetooth limitations.

Even Sailfish cannot use BLE until now, but it's mentioned in 3.3.0 that we can now connect to BLE devices. But can we receive BLE advertise ?

I think that the solution is to make a port of the app when the source are available.

For the France, there is a repo for the future app : https://github.com/betagouv/StopCovid

Some useful links :

A comic that explain the contact tracing principle : https://ncase.me/contact-tracing/

Two specifications for contact tracing :

DP-3T : https://github.com/DP-3T/documents TCN : https://github.com/TCNCoalition/TCN

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1

I think the only way to make it anonymous is using BLE. It would be nice if Sailfish supported BLE in android, many things rely on this communication interface. It cheap and low power. BLE is already supported in native apps it just do it but such an app have to be open source, which also make sense, if enough people shall trust i cannot be used to spy on you. For the app to work everyone have to use same system, it sounds very unrealistic.

mf1910 ( 2020-04-15 09:52:53 +0200 )edit

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answered 2020-04-15 02:46:33 +0200

cemoi71

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and then? what let you think that the app will then works efficiently?
take so much resource and money on a thing which may be not used 100% or not work more than 80% efficiently is a little bit stupid. Government shall give power to find an efficient test to apply on the whole population. if all play the game to make the test when it's ready, and keep distance with other one, and isolation if seek, then it's better than this last resort solution. software don't solve all problems.

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and for other typ of app which display anonym locations. with the live data which it contains, gives the opportunity to other abnormal people to make their silly stuff. isolated people or mass-group are perfect target for them

cemoi71 ( 2020-04-15 02:46:41 +0200 )edit

I am probably a real dumb for IT related stuff but how come such apps can work?

using bluetooth will not provide information on distance so even if you were 4m away, the app will give you a warning
using GPS is usually even worst in terms of distance measuring accuracy (not in theory but in practice)

in big cities you can potentially meet thousands of people that will be marked as infected even you were in safe distance. That will create suspicion and anxiety but not sure it will help tracking.

What can potentially work is sharing your address book and as soon as the authorities know the number of an infected person, then they can send a warning to those having the person in their address book. Up to the person to know if there was a close contact in recent days.

pat_o ( 2020-04-15 10:00:32 +0200 )edit

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using bluetooth will not provide information on distance so even if you were 4m away, the app will give you a warning

That's one of the issues this approach has: https://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2020/04/12/contact-tracing-in-the-real-world/

Sebix ( 2020-04-15 10:42:56 +0200 )edit

1

thanks @Sebix the article is very interesting. It raises lots of questions though. And afaik false alarms are indeed a real issue.

pat_o ( 2020-04-15 11:23:52 +0200 )edit

for me such an app is to be used only as forecast. what could we expected if we want to move to a place. or where could we move to avoid too much people, want to near much or closed people, even if the distance are respected for applying good or bad actions. If it better helps? i have a doubt on it. Make only sense for authorities to locate people who don't respect the civil rules.

the best forecast is our own logical senses. no doubt that nature place have enough place for every one. and social media apps which give the possibilities for giving to friends the info or tips for good or bad places...

cemoi71 ( 2020-04-16 00:36:53 +0200 )edit

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answered 2020-04-21 12:14:09 +0200

mips_tux

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updated 2020-04-24 19:05:27 +0200

Saw also the Robert Protocol : https://github.com/ROBERT-proximity-tracing/documents from INRIA and Fraunhofer AIESEC.

But in fact, in France, the developpment of this app seems "very" complicated. Sorry for this article in French (try to read it with Google Traduction) : https://www.lemondeinformatique.fr/actualites/lire-stopcovid-un-bourbier-technique-politique-et-ethique-78880.html

I understand that Robert protocol needs bluetooth always "on". Or Apple seems to refuse that the iOS smarthones have the bluetooth always on. Why ? Because Apple & Google are working now on their own solution (it's what i understand). So we are note ready yo have a true solution :-D

[edit] : in fact Robert Protocol is an impass. Other articles (also in french) that explains the big problems of this protocol : https://www.numerama.com/tech/619446-stopcovid-vs-apple-pourquoi-la-france-sest-mise-dans-une-impasse.html https://risques-tracage.fr/

I dream that Jolla give to us a true solution with a finish/european solution (that after we indivudually accept or refuse). But with a Jolla company back on the market !

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answered 2020-04-26 03:16:32 +0200

Nerevareeeeeeee
286 ●5 ●11 ●18

general rant, but still: I don't get that tendency making apps out of every web service. Half of those apps are glorified browsers anyway. And another half provide so little benefit it's not worth enduring its constant nagging and bs.

thematic rant: what kind of mind game is this? If you're responsible - you''ll stay in a hospital or at home, if you don't give a damn - you won't put a red "CORONA positive" flag on your head. Another "feel good" app in essence. Plus, why would you give your government a card blanche on tracking you and your contacts 24/7 w/o bothering cell providers and a passable reason to lock you up? (I went a bit paranoid, but so those coronapp creators)

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answered 2020-04-26 16:51:45 +0200

pawel

14895 ●231 ●341 ●376

buy.a.apple.or.google.product with a nice backdoor open only.to.few.apps :)

daily 25000 deaths becuse of hunger, anually 50.000 deaths in germany only.in hospital.due.to.nob working antibiotics .. nobody cares, but hush its corona tine, we all are gonna die

tss, dont get it.

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Agreeing with your sentiment, it's all bollocks to a degree, I am fed up with reading about it and hearing about it. No mention from mainstream media of the deaths through peanut allergies, starvation, bee stings, seasonal flu, etc to make any comparison. Please, don't misunderstand me, I realise that it is a serous problem financially and physically, but as usual, mainstream media loves to sensationalise such things.

I also feel that this forum is not the place for such a discussion, but here I am joining in. If it were up to me, I would have closed this thread the minute it opened, yet I even made one of the first comments, shame on me!.

This crisis is and has nothing to do with SailfishOS and should be closed as a result, but people will argue otherwise and quite frankly, I couldn't give a toss, argue all you like and that is why this should be closed under forum guidelines, for being both "argumentative and subjective".

Spam Hunter ( 2020-04-26 17:03:24 +0200 )edit

1

@Edz: I think you're right about closing this.

This is not the place to argue about yay or nay for a tracing app. Jolla most certainly won't produce any. And the unwillingness of people to participate in an objective, fact based manner as @pawel does demonstrate perfectly (no offense pal but really...) is a reason strong enough in itself.

rozgwi ( 2020-04-26 18:28:59 +0200 )edit

@mips_tux: i guess your original question is kinda answered. if not you can try to ping one of the official Jolla members here for a statement.

rozgwi ( 2020-04-26 18:32:41 +0200 )edit

well done @rozgwi - closing questions is always a potential peril and tends to invite the wrath of disgruntled users, especially those who spent time penning the original question and are perhaps, overly passionate about their article/question content,

I just cannot be bothered to argue with some folks here, it doesn't get any of us anywhere fast, yet, I quite like an argument and am certainly not afraid of confrontation behind or away from the keyboard, it just becomes futile and wearing on the soul.

Spam Hunter ( 2020-04-26 19:50:03 +0200 )edit

Reflections about a future covid 19 app? [off-topic]

The question has been closed for the following reason "question is off-topic or not relevant" by rozgwi
close date 2020-04-26 18:32:55.584544

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Reflections about a future covid 19 app? [off-topic]

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The question has been closed for the following reason "question is off-topic or not relevant" by rozgwi
close date 2020-04-26 18:32:55.584544