[rant] Jolla philosophy [subjective]

asked 2014-05-21 23:35:56 +0200

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Hello,

I know that after this post my karma will drop down to hellish places, but nevertheless I feel the urge to do this. I've got my Jolla as soon as it was possible, and was trembling for weeks to have it. I was proud owner of N900 (hacked from the head to toes) until I drowned it, so Jolla was logical step. Well ... probably no the right one...

You know, I've found like 100 bugs in the SailfishOS I can live with, but there's one _fundamental_ outside of it.. and that's Jolla's user approach philosophy. Maybe it's just me, but whan I was ordering Jolla I was expecting cool hacker-neo-matrix-johny-mnemonic level phone. I TRULY wasn't expecting everything to work, but I was looking for to see that the guys working on it are hackers and they are doing the phone for guys like me.

After like 4 months of daily use I clearly see that Jolla tries to be another "average hipster guy" cellphone with Linux inside (I leave aside the fact that this marketshare is already taken by the Fruit company). I'm just so disappointed by this. I believe that the HW/SW guys working for Jolla are guru level and everything, but the heading ... just misses me...

Maybe some examples to clear my point:

why there's no detailed system/IP address/load information for example in the Settings->System->About product?
the whole browser - the only settings are "clear private data" and "search engine"? 2 items to change? Really?
flat design is chique these days, sure, but why the battery level/signal level/date (!) is visible only when tapping the lock screen? The whole lockscreen concept (there is one, right? ;) is exactly in the line of Apple - "don't show them too much, they get scared"
and I could go on and on

These are not bugs, these are not a features missing per se (because implementing anything from these three is just trivial) - these choices were made deliberately... and that scares me the most... That Jolla is like this for a purpose...

In my humble opinion there is not a single phone aimed at advanced users on the market (and with advanced I mean _advanced_, not trendy/hipster/manager dumbasses). After N900 grew obsolete, Jolla was, even without the keyboard, our only hope to have a hacker friendly phone without Google's big brother around... Well... I guess it's a miss... and still, in the corner of my heart, I'm hoping and waiting for every update...

--Z

PS: I don't call myself a hacker, but let's say that I'm messing with Linux for last 15 years (for living), so I kind of know what I need and yes, I know that I'm a minority... but "we are unlike", right?

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The question has been closed for the following reason "too subjective and argumentative" by 00prometheus
close date 2014-05-23 08:37:31.861471

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you are not alone...

ortylp ( 2014-05-21 23:44:06 +0200 )edit

I recall someone saying they welcome patches/pull requests to the Sailfish Browser.

If you want to hack it, go ahead?

vasavr ( 2014-05-22 01:50:53 +0200 )edit

I believe your post is in place. Even if I don't agree we should not be afraid to discuss the Jolla ideology. It is good to question it, both for the community and Jolla themselves. My view on it though, is that the phone sure is hackable in many ways, and the UI concepts are just beautiful even if it is not finished in every aspect. The things I do miss is the ability to group the programs, but that is on its way I think. The possibility to port linux apps is limited due to the SDL2 and Wayland based UI and graphics, that is not so good. I had also expected Jolla themselves to come up with something more in other halves than just the colored ones. A qwerty one and some other cool things to prove the flexibility of the concept, but that shines with its absence. No battery replacement is another weak spot. The phone was pretty pricey, in the middle to upper price segment, I am keeping up my hopes and hoping for improvement from Jolla side. But they better hurry up...

Larswad ( 2014-05-22 10:48:14 +0200 )edit

I agree with @Larswad comment above - we should discuss all this. And the rant reasons he states are the "right" ones for me: the whole (great)concept for TOH is compromised with the absence of a SINGLE functional TOH from Jolla. And the way Jolla communicates with community is not what (we)I expected.

zlatko ( 2014-05-22 11:14:07 +0200 )edit

Can we close this as too argumentative? (see first 2 answers at least) TJC is meant to help, and while ranting/posting opinions is ok, I don't think this is the place. You can use [insert your favourite forum here] to do that and have ample discussions.

gabriel ( 2014-05-22 11:29:28 +0200 )edit

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answered 2014-05-22 01:51:15 +0200

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http://talk.maemo.org/

I am confused at best. 15 years in Linux and you need a settings GUI for a stock browser that you should have replaced by your very own compilation of ~insert favourite browser here~. Please read this and reconsider your ethos. Oh, and before I forget...Jolla needs to be socially compatible to the masses to be successful for corporate standards. You can still mess around on the phone more than a consumer (paying-, willing-, easily impressed by apple'esque features-) should even know about, there's zero need to call or send additional money to Jolla to get the developer mode unlocked.

With Love, and salty lips,

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answered 2014-05-22 08:00:39 +0200

zlatko

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updated 2014-05-22 10:21:59 +0200

For me most of your rant just makes no sense or you are misinterpreting "missing and not yet developed features" as "UX ideology":

why should YOU after 15 years with Linux need a menu in Settings telling you system load and IP address? There are standard CLI tools for that.
- file browser missing IS a missing feature, not a vision implemented. All the file system is exposed to you and again after 15 years with Linux one should be more comfortable with CLI commands "cd", "cp", "mv", "rm" etc.than fiddling with a (new)GUI.
- I never needed signal strength indicator since the first years of GSM roll-out. And for battery - there are so many ways and applications coming that one can use on multitasking screen. But - yes, that being customizable is best.
- browser is an underdeveloped crutch in the moment and it is NOT working well. But - this is missing feature, not vision.

There are many things one can rant about with Jolla and some of them are UI concepts(like wasted ambiance switch gesture/screen), but I think you are missing the point here.

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From my point of view it's really about ideology. Of course I can run ifconfig from terminal, but for god's sake why, when adding simple textbox in the System/Settings app is like half-n-hour job including testing? I'd have Openmoko for this approach ;)

I don't believe that the filesystem exposure is really only "unimplemented". It's a philosophy and it's clearly visible in all Sailfish components. Do you think that "Browse filesystem" option would match current Gallery's UX concept? I don't think so...

About system level applications - yeah sure, lots are coming, for example Lighthouse looks really promising, but I still would expect this functionality from the core system devolopers. You may take like this:

Those "features" are more like cherry-on-top winking its eye saying "Well, we know you are not stupid, you've got this product for a reason and here are information you may need as an advanced user". And that's the reason I've bought Jolla - I didn't want a dumbuserphone...

Mr. Zdeeck ( 2014-05-22 10:55:45 +0200 )edit

I can not agree. For me the answer to "Well, we know you are not stupid, you've got this product for a reason and here are information you may need as an advanced user" is official developer mode and terminal. Why should an advanced user fiddle with several steps UI to figure out the IP instead just typing "ifconfig"? Why should an advanced user fiddle with GUI to move/delete several files instead doing this in terminal with one wild char command? Or even better - in terminal on his laptop using SSH? I don't understand the issue with gallery? All images I need are indexed and present there? What I am missing there is some way of organizing, preferably tags. Images I do not want to show there I put in hidden folders.

zlatko ( 2014-05-22 11:06:31 +0200 )edit

Yeah, I know I can also jailbreak iPhone and get all the advanced "features". But again that's not the point. These are not missing features (most of them are actually missing information), these are design choices to keep it "simple for simple users". Another example: I'm really amazed with Alien Dalvik - I didn't expect it to run so good. BUT sometimes the AD window is closed, and the VM is still running in the background and eating CPU power. So you have to... Go to terminal, check your CPU load (no other way to know it), kill the right process. Why there's not a simple information somewhere "No of AD apps running?". Yeah, I can run some Android app for that - ES Task Manager for example, but again it's like scratching your itch with your foot. I know all the functionality is somewhere and I can get to it with terminal (and let's be honest here - the terminal without keyboard is kind of pain-in-the-ass) - but that makes Jolla just another "jailbreaked" phone.

Mr. Zdeeck ( 2014-05-22 11:22:46 +0200 )edit

answered 2014-05-22 00:03:15 +0200

ApB
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They are trying to create a phone for everybody NOT a hacker phone. Yes it has its flaws and its not for everybody.
Browser will get a few things added to it in may/june +you can hack on it yourself. The code is out there. It doesn't get more "hacker" than this.
There is a request about customizable lockscreen but there is no ETA on it AFAIK.
Go on. :)

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Well, there can be phone which doesn't make an idiot of myself and still be usable by majority. I want to set things according to my needs, I want to know what is going on with the device and I want to use it in ways not imagined by the Creator.

I know that browser source is out - but my post wasn't about missing features, it was about obvious heading of the product and its internal user philosophy. (and also I don't think that community changes would be propagated so easily back to the core ;-) The lockscreen is not about customization, it's about hiding vital information - I've read a thread about how hard it would be to make it customizable (with applets as far as I remember) here on Together and I'm OK with that - but again that's not the point. The point is that somebode thinks that knowing your battery and signal level is not really so necessary.

And to go on: why do we have to install external application for File browser? You see, even Android has one in the basic setup.

-Z

Mr. Zdeeck ( 2014-05-22 00:28:40 +0200 )edit

TBH i prefer the install everything by yourself approach. Even for a file browser.

Like it or not all products are what the creator wanted/seemed reasonable at the moment. If it fits your needs you buy it, If not you buy something else. As simple as that.

As for jolla the only thing you can do is ask things and they might be implemented in the future. They already have implemented some of the stuff the community asked. And more are coming. And you don't get that with many companies. ;)

If you don't have the patience for it or it doesn't fit your needs you will have to look for another phone.

ApB ( 2014-05-22 00:38:48 +0200 )edit

Well... AFAIG the filebrowser is missing on purpose - as the whole "file system" concept is missing in all base applications. Just go through them. It's like iPhone - completely hiding stuff beneath (that there're files, that we've got directories, CPU, etc.). My sigh was that Jolla was my last hope to get something at least close to my needs... now it's all the same sh*t... MSNokia/Android/iPhone...

Mr. Zdeeck ( 2014-05-22 00:47:25 +0200 )edit

There is a file picker API in development AFAIK but not stable yet if thats what you ask for. And no idea on the ETA of it.

ApB ( 2014-05-22 01:00:26 +0200 )edit

AFAIK file browser is missing because it was/is buggy and not finished (so it's unfinished feature, not a design choice). I think there was instruction on how to install it from command line. Now there is at least 3 third party file browsers available, so I'd guess finishing their own is not high priority.

TemeV ( 2014-05-22 09:10:35 +0200 )edit

[rant] Jolla philosophy [subjective]

The question has been closed for the following reason "too subjective and argumentative" by 00prometheus
close date 2014-05-23 08:37:31.861471

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[rant] Jolla philosophy [subjective]

The question has been closed for the following reason "too subjective and argumentative" by 00prometheus close date 2014-05-23 08:37:31.861471

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The question has been closed for the following reason "too subjective and argumentative" by 00prometheus
close date 2014-05-23 08:37:31.861471