[rant] Jolla philosophy v2

asked 2014-09-21 15:16:13 +0200

George
361 ●3 ●4 ●4

updated 2015-06-03 14:23:03 +0200

molan

9968 ●99 ●137 ●145

Hello,

I've gone through the original post at https://together.jolla.com/question/43398/rant-jolla-philosophy/ and even though i agree to some extend, i wouldn't like to focus on those bits.

My points are mostly towards the support and the relationship between Jolla and the end user. In this post, i will try to list my complaint and at the same time some suggestions, and hopefully people will not close it as "subjective".

I'm one of the first people to pre-order Jolla and also order the phone when it was released. I've been silently following this project since it's original announcement and i believe I've seen most of the news and discussion about the phone before it's release.

Overall, I love the phone and its features, so i think i made the right decision last year, however there are some areas that i think should improve so i can remain a fan and not head to different phones.

Hardware support

It is unacceptable to have such a limited store. Cases and screen protectors appeared nearly half a year after the release of the phone, and obviously given the fact that this is not a popular phone, it's almost impossible to source items from the internet.
Batteries are also something that's missing from the store. It's once again an item you cannot source and the phone seems to have developed some battery issues where the power goes from 10% to 5% in around 3 minutes when i'm just browsing the web and all apps are closed. I will not mention the fact that i cannot have a spare battery if i need to travel. People might argue that this is no longer a feature in most big brands, however to me it is a big advantage and selling point of the phone. Ideas like this were one of the reasons why i chose to support Jolla.
Hardware keyboard. I understand that they've never officially confirmed that they were going to develop one, but they would give the community the means to develop it. This is perfectly acceptable, however given that the community is so late (nearly a year after release, and closer to jolla v2 possibly with different design) in developing something that was another huge selling point, i think it wouldn't harm to assign some resources to assist in the development and release of it.
TOH colors. On the original demo, there was a rainbow collection of colors for TOH and on the store i can only see 3! Where are the other colors and how can we come across them? It's understandable that there might not be enough demand for them, but it would be great if we could at least arrange a group order for a specific color through the official store.

Software Support

Overall, i'm really happy with the releases and the bug fixes and it seems they put too much effort in this. It would be unreasonable to expect them to code faster or close the issues any sooner and this is something we all knew before we chose to support this project. However:

Community releases: You should allow the community developers to put apps on your store sooner especially if they are helping to improve the core usability of the phone. I've been waiting for a release of the Greek UI or even SW keyboard for long, and i have even contacted Jolla directly offering (for free obviously) my time to help them with the translation, but i was turned down and sent to the community. I understand there are unofficial releases, but they are not as easy to install, so it makes me wonder why Jolla doesn't include those to their store and what would it take to do so.

MISC

Most countries have at least one provider that's close to the community and also young people. In Greece there are plenty, and in the UK there is GiffGaff which has a similar ideology in terms of appealing to the public for suggestion and ideas. In most cases they hear and they follow what the users say. I'm unsure why Jolla is not included on their phones list and why they haven't got a joined campaign to promote the phone, but i would think it's highly unlikely to have turned Jolla's offer down.
Given that i was one of the first to pre-order the phone, i was hoping for something more in terms of support. In china, they got the fancy box, the signed cards and lower price, whereas the people who supported the project from its birth, are now part of the bunch.
A few months back, i was in the unfortunate position to drop my phone and smash the gorilla glass. Everything works fine, but the glass is now shattered. Rather than paying half the price of the phone, i would expect to be able to get a glass on its own and fit it myself or at a local shop. I'm certain the glass doesn't cost much, and given that this would be a one-way transfer (Jolla->Me) it would certainly be cheaper than having to send it back for replacement of all the screen components. Even selling the whole screen would cost less, and i'm pretty certain people would rather invalidate their warranty, than end up paying nearly half the price of the phone. Especially given the fact you can get Chinese Android phone with better specs for that much. I read that the price for such a replacement is now around 120EUR but that still excludes P&P and is still quite expensive considering that you can get a gorilla glasse for Sammy for around 20EUR.

Overall, i wouldn't recommend the phone to a friend, but i would certainly recommend Sailfish to someone who would like something different. Unfortunately, for most people, the phone is Sailfish and Sailfish is the phone, and I'm hoping some things will change in the future, or I'll end up turning my back to the project.

In my eyes, when someone asks the community for support, he should offer support back to the community to allow them to advance faster and easier. This is even more important when it comes to hardware where only a few people have the knowledge and fewer have the connections needed to produce something in a factory in China.

When i committed to buy the phone and support their ideology, i hoped that they would be different than the rest in all areas, would provide support and assist the community to advance not only on software (like on N900/N9) but on all aspects of the hardware. Many people would gladly donate their time to help, but it seems that for some reason, they don't want direct support in all areas.

Looking forward for your views, and possibly ideas as to what i can do as an individual (web developer) to further support the project and resolve the support and hardware issues mentioned above.

Thanks for reading

p.s. As mentioned before, I've contacted Jolla directly for some of my problems and i was directed to the community. This is the only official forum, and in my eyes the "official" way to get both the community's and the company's views. The rest of the forums, can still provide superb support, but i doubt they can give insider views to the items above. if you close this topic, i would ask you to put a response as to your reasons so i can hopefully improve my communication in the future.

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HW Support #3

The guys working on the HW Keyboard are making great progress TMO Thread. Sure its still mostly a hobby effort but HW development is expensive and take time.

HW Support #4

It's surprising that there are no cheap injection molded non-smart covers available for Jolla, all it would take is sending the .stl in the TOH SDK off to a manufacturer and getting a mold done up. I thought about doing this myself as the upfront cost is only around EUR1500, but given I'm going to have to go back to Australia the distance is too far.

Alternatively someone could order a small batch through Alibaba and maybe they'll start popping up on ebay and such.

r0kk3rz ( 2014-09-22 01:43:54 +0200 )edit

@r0kk3rz I'm not saying they don't do a good job. If anything, the do a great one and the keyboard looks awesome and i can't wait to get one. My point was towards the support they receive during the development cycle. As you said, HW development is expensive and takes time, and by the time they start selling it, (some) people will be thinking about their next phone, simply because this one is already "old". Jolla had to create connections in China to produce this phone and i was hoping they would have shared those connections. If not with the community, at least with the team who seems more active, devotes their time and seem to be ready for release. In my eyes, the ideal scenario would be to support them fully and make this the "official" unofficial HW keyboard which would fill a huge gap. I doubt many people anticipate a different TOH than this.

George ( 2014-09-22 10:26:39 +0200 )edit

It's surprising that there are no cheap ... non-smart covers available for Jolla

http://www.flypig.co.uk/toh/ are offering such for just over €14 plus P&P

strongm ( 2014-09-22 11:48:15 +0200 )edit

@strongm I know, I've got one. EUR14 isnt cheap, takes over 3 weeks to get one, and 3d printing isn't best for this kind of thing compared to injection molded polycarbonate like the stock TOH is.

You could even use a cheaper material and get whatever colour you wanted for EUR5 and receive it within a week in Europe. At scale 3d printing cannot compete with injection molding on quality or price.

r0kk3rz ( 2014-09-22 12:14:11 +0200 )edit

@r0kk3rz I don't agree that the TMO efforts are sufficient. I have a TOHKBD v1, and I will very likely buy the v2, but it is clearly also an extreme enthusiasts device; 100€ for a keyboard that barely works! The v2 might be more stable, but the worst problem with the v1 will still be there for the v2: the extreme size. I actually spent more money on replacing jeans that were destroyed in weeks from using the v1 than I did on the keyboard itself.

A good form-factor would be something like the E7, a device that managed to be thin at the same time as having a keyboard, but the milled aluminum design isn't possible without considerable investment, so amateurs are out.

The real problem is of course that the Jolla market is too small to attract any established add-on manufacturers, so Jolla will have to make the basics themselves.

Make no mistake: The keyboard is a basic for the Jolla, since the core market for Jolla is the tinkerer market. Directly competing with IOS and Android for the average consumer market is impossible until Jolla has grown a lot more!

00prometheus ( 2014-09-22 22:15:10 +0200 )edit

3 Answers

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answered 2014-09-21 21:27:47 +0200

midnightoil

3612 ●39 ●49 ●54

updated 2014-09-22 00:44:12 +0200

Re: HW Support.

2) That they still don't have spare batteries for sale is mind boggling. It's a simple commodity, and the Jolla one should be pretty cheap and widely available. Unless of course the packaging of the Jolla phone is so odd they have to have them custom made, and their OEM only makes a few.

3) & 4) - TOH has been a diversion for both Jolla and the community. Given that pace of progress has been modest on Sailfish and the Jolla phone's hardware is quite limited, it's difficult to imagine that the decision to implement TOH concept in their first phone wasn't a poor use of resources. Also, now that expectations for it have been let down, there's no upside. Worse, we now have people demanding that it's retained in exactly its current form for the next phone (disaster IMO).

Re: Software Support in general.

First of all, OpenRepos' respository app NEEDS to be in the Marketplaces section of the Jolla Store, along with Yandex and Anzhi. Most serious development happens there and the Jolla Store is currently a barren wasteland. Second of all, it's bizarre that there's been no discussion of paid app support yet, despite the Jolla phone approaching its first birthday. No ETA, no rumours, not a word. Doesn't exactly seem like a very attractive structure for potential developers?

Re: Misc.

1) I don't think it's that simple. Sailfish is at an early stage & still missing quite a few obligatory features, and the Jolla phone's price is too high & hardware too basic. It would be really difficult for a carrier to market or sell. Given these factors, there'd also likely be a high rate of return, so it'd be too much hassle even for 'boutique' carriers, for the most part.

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About paid app support, from SailfishDevel mailing list, April 2014: https://lists.sailfishos.org/pipermail/devel/2014-April/004063.html

We see the payment support in store as a really important part of our developer offering. We are currently working to support payments in our Jolla Store and Harbour but there are a lot of things for us to do. Our current target is to provide you the monetizing possibility durign the 2nd half of 2014.

ssahla ( 2014-09-21 23:09:54 +0200 )edit

Never saw that. But why no word whatsoever since? Making clear and public how they plan to support developers with a way to commercialise their efforts should surely be made more prominent than a single development e-mail (i.e. not public) 6 months ago?

midnightoil ( 2014-09-22 00:40:28 +0200 )edit

Having OpenRepos Warehouse in the Jolla Store is a bad idea, there's loads of experimental stuff on there with fairly wide ranging consequences and zero quality assurance. Don't get me wrong OpenRepos is great and I'm using it as a pre-release place for my own app, but that doesn't mean it should be fully endorsed by Jolla for reasons stated above.

OpenRepos has its place, and Jolla has its own reasons for what is/isnt allowed into the Jolla Store, and Jolla have stated a number of times that they are working on new features for the Jolla Store (like the ability to check client sailfishos version) which will allow more apps to be published there so be patient

r0kk3rz ( 2014-09-22 01:54:28 +0200 )edit

I'm not saying put experimental / unassured stuff in the Jolla Store itself, but having Warehouse itself shouldn't be a problem, especially if the store page makes it clear that some software isn't fully tested / stable and installing said software is done on a caveat emptor basis. If people are too foolish to take heed, then if something goes wrong it's their fault. The vast majority of people who buy the Jolla almost certainly never install anything from the marketplaces tab, or probably even look there, anyway.

midnightoil ( 2014-09-22 04:42:27 +0200 )edit

Even if they don't put OpenRepos Warehouse in the Jolla Store, they could at least move apps to their store sooner. Surely it can't be very hard to ensure a localisation package does not contain malicious code. They obviously don't speak the language and they cannot validate the translation but still, they have the community. Let it decide if it's good or bad.

Localisation, or at least a simple way of doing this, is a requirement for many markets, regardless if they speak English or not. Not everyone will/can install the android app store, and such a package, but they would gladly stick with the pre-installed markets.

Just by allowing such a package to their market, would persuade people to try the phone. Even people who are sceptical about modifications to their phone.

George ( 2014-09-22 10:41:52 +0200 )edit

answered 2014-09-22 23:11:07 +0200

bilgy_no1
7008 ●55 ●100 ●104

I think that Jolla are developing the platform in a very open way, more see than any other manufacturer. Compare it to the way Samsung are developing their Tizen platform. There, there's an sdk for app developers and some os development in the community, but even after three years there's no phone available yet.

Jolla are doing all their development out in the open, and that's courageous. It's also risky, because expectations about phones are very high these days. And the Jolla and Sailfish are still too young to really compete in every aspect.

So, although I think Jolla deserve some patience and understanding for their way of doing things, you do have a point about some other things like the battery and TOH availability. And if people promise to help with translation packages, then by all means they should accept...

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Where's their public feature roadmap and milestones document? Few people know what's going on and when or if certain things will come. Lots of basic features / bugs are noted by devs on this forum, and they inform us fixes / implementations will be worked on or are coming ... many of those were in December last year, and now 10 months later, not another word. When people ask about the status or bump the thread much later, the Jolla staff generally never respond. If they want to claim openess, they really ought to spend a bit more time on letting the existing community and interested third parties know what they're up to.

midnightoil ( 2014-09-23 00:27:53 +0200 )edit

I'm not saying they're perfect. But none of these things you mention are available for any of the other open source platforms. Let alone platforms like Android, Windows phone and iOS. No other manufacturer would release a phone at such an early stage and invite members of the public to participate in the process of developing. Still, like you say, many things can be improved. What I meant is that Jolla cannot meet all the expectations, simply because they are really high for phones and they really only have a beta product at this stage.

bilgy_no1 ( 2014-09-23 00:37:23 +0200 )edit

But if you're going to claim openess and how different and community friendly you are, this endeavour at least would surely be worth their while, as it's very resource unintensive and would placate a lot of people, rather than just leaving them in the dark and exasperated as now. Btw it's much easier to find out what features are being worked on in Ubuntu Phone and it's still an alpha (albeit one 2-3 months away from first phone releasing). P.S. Two Tizen phones are available in Russia, and their smartwatch is Tizen, too.

midnightoil ( 2014-09-23 00:48:58 +0200 )edit

If you want Jolla employees to reply to every single post on here there would be no one/time left to actually work on things. Join the mailing lists and you will receive all the latest info without requiring any extra effort from any party. If you think joining a mailing list is too much, I don't know anymore.

It's easier to find out what's going on with the Ubuntu Phone than with Jolla. Canonical also has five times the amount of employees of Jolla and a decade of experience.

nthn ( 2014-09-23 02:21:31 +0200 )edit

No-one is asking for that ... but there's a deafening silence in most areas, and as stated, a public roadmap or list of fixes that are being worked on and ETAs would take practically no time to make or administer, and would at least show some kind of interest in engagement on their part. Canonical also has way fewer people working on Ubuntu Phone than Jolla do on Sailfish / their phone, so I don't see how the comparison works.

midnightoil ( 2014-09-23 03:06:29 +0200 )edit

answered 2014-09-25 23:42:34 +0200

SaimenSays

6943 ●92 ●146 ●141

I see more and more threads coming up, where the displeasure about Jolla is expressed.

Because Jolla comes to market very late, where most people opted for Android or IOS, it is now very difficult to convince these users now. There have to be unique features, outstanding support or even a better UI. In my opinion none of these points are fullfilled up to now. The phone is not better then others at half price. I bought the phone to support them and hoped to get fast improvements. But the real improvements stucks more and more.

Hopefully they will here the communities voice and wake up, before they were kickep out of market!

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Remember that its the vocal minority who post comments, and people rarely post when everything is fine.

I dont really understand why people compare the Jolla to android and iPhones. Sure its a smartphone but its completely different to the others, if you expected more of the same then you wont find it here.

r0kk3rz ( 2014-09-26 10:09:11 +0200 )edit

I see more and more threads coming up, where the displeasure about Jolla is expressed.

And I'm tired of this.

Yes, not everything is perfect.
Yes, they made mistakes.
Yes, they'll do mistakes.

I know this is probably the way people express their strongs expectations. But come on :

They have done something huge.
They are listening.
They are communicating.
They are improving.
They are allowing us to discuss, to make proposals. They are allowing to be part of the trip. Maybe not aboard the mothership but still. I don't know any other place like TJC. I don't know any other company that schedules (almost) weekly meetings (on IRC) with the community to discuss open topics.

There is always room for improvements. That's great, because this means more surprises and more fun to come. Let's try to help wherever/whenever we can. Let's be patient and supportive :)

François ( 2014-09-26 13:06:18 +0200 )edit

@François There are various reasons for displeasure by people. Some of them can be resolved quite easily. Do you think the ones i listed on the main question are unreasonable?

The main point is whether they allow people to help them, or if they "use" the community to achieve just what they have in mind, and don't deviate from it.

When the community asks for "hardware" or "Localisation" and they even offer to provide them, why not allow them to help?

George ( 2014-09-26 13:17:33 +0200 )edit

@George I am not stating your issues / grievances are unreasonables. I understand them. To be trully sincere, I mostly agree with you.

But this might also not be as easy as it seems. Regarding the hardware parts (providing batteries, more Other Halves, hardware keyboard), they need to study the market. Who's ready to buy one ? 10 people or 10 000 people ? I'm pretty sure they will put them on the store when they're is enough demand. Which might not be the case for now.

Other accessories (screen protectors, cases, ...) are generally made by specialized manufacturers. I don't think Google provides some for their Nexus. Apple doesn't either. This is a totally different job. So, I think it's pretty understandable. They still managed to partner with Lastucase : it certainly took some time and effort. And it's available now :)

François ( 2014-09-26 15:08:16 +0200 )edit

Concerning software updates / patches, it's pretty weird and sad. But accepting patches also means reviewing/testing and they probably don't have enough resources for that now. But this is clearly something they could (should) improve. I hope they are working on it. Maybe push that topic for a IRC meeting ? I would gladly support you :)

Partnership with providers is, imho, not the community business. They are probably working very hard on it.

Well, all these are just suppositions and guesses. I (sadly) don't work at Jolla and I have no official information. But I'm pretty confident that they are making their best to both run their business and make their customers happy. They just can't do things as fast as we would like. We have to stay confident and supportive. That's all I'm saying :)

François ( 2014-09-26 15:08:28 +0200 )edit

[rant] Jolla philosophy v2

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