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[ POLL ] Deliver the Tablet - or Loose "a Burden" ? [answered]

asked 2015-12-18 01:46:07 +0300

launchpad gravatar image

updated 2016-01-28 18:27:41 +0300

In a historical community collaboration meeting on December 17th @AnttiSaarnio informed the jolla community about a successful securing of C-round fundings :

14:44:16 < AnttiSaarnio > We only got the financing confirmed yesterday, and we are now busy analysing different alternatives what to do with TabletGate

14:45:17 < AnttiSaarnio > We will have a board meeting after Christmas which is to decide between alternatives.

14:47:18 < AnttiSaarnio > Options are: refunding or to continue with tablets, but then even more delays are to be expected.

Complementing some community feedback to the decision-making : What would be your preference ?

Is it still essential for jolla's credibility and achievement of milestones to actually deliver hardware or now, as a software focused business to loose a hardware-related legacy "burden" and reimburse IGG backers ?

To what are you willing to accept / understand related delays ?


See also :

IRC Log : http://merproject.org/meetings/mer-meeting/2015/mer-meeting.2015-12-17-14.30.log.txt

Jolla Blog: https://blog.jolla.com/jolla-back-business/

Jolla Press Release ( pdf ): https://t.co/cTH6GgO5Wq

Techcrunch article ( English ): http://techcrunch.com/2015/12/18/sailfish-os-lives-to-fight-android-another-day-as-jolla-secures-series-c-funding/

heise article ( German ): http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Jolla-Finanzierung-gesichert-Jolla-Tablet-kommt-vielleicht-3048387.html


--> Jolla's decision: "Aiming for Closure"

More : https://blog.jolla.com/jolla-tablet-closure

Thanks for voting !

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The question has been closed for the following reason "the question is answered, an answer was accepted" by launchpad
close date 2016-01-28 18:23:57.176361

Comments

12

Community? Mr anttisaarnio has left -and is still leaving- the tablet crowdsourcing community completely in the dark. So the first point of the board meeting should be: "Is this board willing and capable to work and communicate with communities, or should it step down to make room for leaders that can".

wim de vries ( 2015-12-18 13:42:51 +0300 )edit
5

@wim de vries ... that's exactly why I think the decision-making announced shouldn't happen without any community opinion in context. On the other hand you'll have to allow them some time to organize & gather.

launchpad ( 2015-12-18 14:04:28 +0300 )edit
3

And the message transported by this poll seems very clear.

lakutalo ( 2015-12-18 14:13:33 +0300 )edit
3

@lakutalo ... what I consider constructive in a way :)

launchpad ( 2015-12-18 14:43:21 +0300 )edit
11

@wim de vries. If I could downvote you, I would!!! - The community is in the multi-thousands, do you expect a one-to-one treatment (for ~200 € 'investment')? Sorry this does NOT scale at all. The tablet would cost 500 € plus just for communication alone... How s l o w would progress be if they started to listen to each and every mutually conflicting voice? - If you feel so left in the dark why don't you follow/join the mer-meetings?

chappi ( 2015-12-18 15:03:17 +0300 )edit

15 Answers

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190

answered 2015-12-18 08:34:45 +0300

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updated 2015-12-18 08:35:03 +0300

eson gravatar image

Deliver the tablet.

Of course it shouldn't take "years" to deliver, but within reasonable time, I'm still eager to lay my hands on a SailfishOS tablet.

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12

They would loose their face if tablet is not delivered - they cannot afford it, especially not now. Jolla has already alienated many die-hard followers with this "TabletGate". They have to do their best to sort it out in a manner that all nerves will be settled down and nobody will remember "the firs people powered tablet" saga as a total disaster.

On the other hand they could start face-lifting the hw not to be so outdated! :D:D:D:D

zlutor ( 2015-12-18 10:28:34 +0300 )edit
12

DELIVER, PLEASE!! Even if it is not the newest Hardware......Just look at the Jolla Phone. Two (or more) years old, and still fast as hell (when using Sailfish w/o Android support).

lupastro ( 2015-12-18 10:39:53 +0300 )edit
19

I feel that being one of the first wave that actually have received a tablet I stand more to lose by Jolla not delivering the rest of the tablets. Stopping the deliveries and refunding would leave me with a device for which I would need to create all the apps myself, that likely would see little to no updates.

rahlskog ( 2015-12-18 11:04:03 +0300 )edit
7

^ @rahlskog : That's quite a convincing point ... there must exist an actual platform to keep OS adaptions for this class of devices convincingly up-to-date and alive !

launchpad ( 2015-12-18 11:17:23 +0300 )edit
7

Yes I still want it!

Pim ( 2015-12-18 12:24:27 +0300 )edit
31

answered 2015-12-18 03:30:43 +0300

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updated 2016-12-04 14:04:57 +0300

launchpad gravatar image

Convert perks into jolla shareholdership.

Offer a choice option between monetary refund or shareholdership if possible. It will reduce the burden of refund payments and the risk of partial compensation payments.


Measured against the cumulative investor investments in jolla of about USD 50m by the time the tablet campaign was active, the total of perks sold & tablet pre-sales amounted to USD 3m which produces a share in jolla fundings of more than 5.5%. Additional “community edition” shares could be offered ( for further fundraising ) to backers / comunity members by checkout procedures on this occasion to build a long-term community ownership of 10 - 15% for example. Apart from securing further cash, this could also mean a statement from a company proud of involving & maintaining an active community.

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Comments

2

seriously?

kaktux ( 2015-12-18 21:07:34 +0300 )edit
5

@kaktux: Actually I would buy stocks when Jolla would offer. I think its a good way for supporting and you feels as/get part of the family. (Personally I wont take stocks in exchange for tablet as far as there is a chance to get a tablet ) :-)

M.Bln. ( 2015-12-19 00:28:21 +0300 )edit

i agree on buying stocks IF they would be available. but part of the family? come on. you invest to get a profit in some way. thats what the whole market is build on. and again: if jolla would really consider this as a tabletgate option i couldn't take them serious to. but as the two options they think about are clear all orther suggestions are pointless anyway. but in my opinion this one for sure can't be taken serious from anyone having a serious business model.

kaktux ( 2015-12-19 11:41:47 +0300 )edit
5

@kaktux: Let's put it this way: I would not buy stocks to make profit - at least not in the first line. At the moment Jolla seem to have a long run to be a top investment. First and foremost I would buy stocks for supporting the idea and to have more participation in it. But that's anyway a hypothetical question as long as Jolla doesn't offer stocks.

M.Bln. ( 2015-12-19 12:12:51 +0300 )edit

that wasnn't my point, we mostly agree on that.but offering stocks on a stock exchange platform available for investors is completely different to asking for shareholder values in exchanage for a crowdfunding gone wrong. thats all i am saying.

kaktux ( 2015-12-19 23:51:48 +0300 )edit
30

answered 2015-12-18 07:28:27 +0300

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updated 2015-12-18 09:42:46 +0300

launchpad gravatar image

Refund the tablets and fully concentrate on the next device!!! ;)

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2

I guess it comes down to if the manufacturer still wants to deal with Jolla. If not refunding would be my choice

michel ( 2015-12-18 14:10:23 +0300 )edit
5

just refund, no reason to walk that valley again

do what you are best of and don't miss any goal/deadline/... no more!

schroberto ( 2015-12-18 15:04:40 +0300 )edit
20

answered 2015-12-18 02:21:46 +0300

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updated 2015-12-18 09:46:54 +0300

launchpad gravatar image

Basically I'd like to receive my tablet(s) but I see risk in a spoilt manufacturer relationship with several unknowns - this must be resolved first.*

No tablet delivery at any price. It should not significantly eat up resources for further SFOS development.


*) related IRC-Quote:

14:49:21 <anttisaarnio> yes, nothing to do with Jolla, but it seems that our production partner from China started selling some tables which were already produced and in their stock. We are discussing with them that they would stop sales immeadiately</anttisaarnio>

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Comments

1

I think this quote really makes clear what the problem is. It really is a burden to restore the relationship with the manufacturer.

bilgy_no1 ( 2015-12-19 10:10:03 +0300 )edit

Could be an indication : "The bad news here is that we are not able to complete the production to fulfill all contributions."

Source: https://blog.jolla.com/new-years-greetings-jolla/

launchpad ( 2016-01-01 19:10:19 +0300 )edit
17

answered 2015-12-18 22:10:06 +0300

Stefanix gravatar image

Give choices: Refund or delivery for paying the difference to the new costs I really want to have the tablet, but part of my motivation to "buy" the tablet was to support Jolla. Supporters should get the option to get a refund or to get the tablet by paying the difference to cover the additional costs to revamp the production of the remaining tablets. Actually the tablets are "perks", not regular purchases. Not sure if there is even a right to get the tablet. Keeping Jolla alive is more important to me than getting the tablet. So give users an option to chose: pull back or pay the extra cost. Paying the extra should then be e regular purchase and the money should go straight to the factory.

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Another possibility is to change the tablet perk by a Jolla phone (or a part of it). A big part of my motivation to contribute in IGG was to support Jolla. Let's Jolla decide was is the best solution for the Tablet project. I'd love the tablet in my hands some day, I'd increasse my perk if the cost of production is higher, that would be my choice if possible. But I would also change the perk by the Jolla phone paying part of it, or other option in which I can further contribute. The refund could be another option (that I would not take).

I also think that giving some options to the IGG contributors is a good idea.

dchornillos ( 2015-12-19 13:09:53 +0300 )edit

I will gladly pay more for my tablet and rescind any rights I may have had for the originally advertised price.

halfnibble ( 2016-01-01 11:27:00 +0300 )edit
16

answered 2015-12-18 23:05:50 +0300

DieUnwucht gravatar image

updated 2015-12-18 23:16:52 +0300

Make sure there are reference devices provided with a pure SFOS that showcases Jollas intented platform

Jolla needs a reference platform for their supported device classes. That is: one Phone and one Tablet. The important characteristic of these reference devices is that the SFOS they are running are the plain SFOS versions, the way Jolla is thinking about the system. If these devices are build, supplied and supported by other companies does not matter.

The differentiation is, that licensing partners will always want branding, i.e. bespoke changes to the system. If all available devices are only provided by licensing partners, it will be pretty much impossible to recognise the original platform as such. Moreover will the community loose the little handle it has now to participate and contribute.

The tablet is ready for manufacturing and delivery and hence may be finished by the hands of Jolla as the last device being provided by Jolla directly. If a partner can do that same thing better and quicker, but under the rules defined by Jolla - that would be fine as well.

A future, updated reference phone could be delivered by establishing a partnership with fairphone and/or puzzlephone. These are hardware manufacturers with an interest to being the original SFOS oto their devices. This would allow Jolla to concentrate on the software and hardware adaptation and leave the device design, manufacturing and support to fairphone and/or puzzlephone.

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.... pace-keeping reference devices are required to showcase, proliferate and improve SFOS functionality & performance.

Continuous community / end-user feedback is simply not possible with the absence of real world devices.Tablet delivery realizes positive / advantageous development & engineering feedback for jolla. Think of that.

launchpad ( 2015-12-21 01:54:39 +0300 )edit

This hits on the nail. Jolla need to resolve this.

polarphone ( 2016-01-09 07:01:29 +0300 )edit
12

answered 2016-01-05 17:03:37 +0300

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updated 2016-02-04 18:05:15 +0300

launchpad gravatar image

Jolla should show commitment and

Buy out the abandoned tablets from Taobao and have them delivered to the next backers on the list ! ( and safe a bit of pride & reputation that way )

By the time of writing the dubious ( maybe humiliating ?! ) auctions on Taobao have ( increased to 6 ) update February 4th: increased to 8 - the first one of them appearing at least since December 16th :

https://world.taobao.com/search/search.htm?q=jolla%20tablet

One offer seems to deliver even SailfishOS 2.0 fused devices :

https://world.taobao.com/item/525733298630.htm#detail

... proudly advertising it as IGG-funded - as if just and only funded for the Chinese fun consumer market.


Jolla 32GB tablets on Taobao stock :

https://world.taobao.com/item/525258878357.htm
> on stock: Jan 5th: 52, Feb 4th: 67

https://world.taobao.com/item/524680984224.htm
> on stock Jan 5th: 689, Feb 4th: 684

https://world.taobao.com/item/525505795172.htm
> on stock Jan 5th: 150, Feb 4th: 150

https://world.taobao.com/item/525246736574.htm
> on stock Jan 5th: 999, Feb 4th: 1496

https://world.taobao.com/item/525529259229.htm
> on stock Jan 5th: 1000, Feb 4th: 1000

https://world.taobao.com/item/525733298630.htm
> on stock Jan 5th: 150, Feb 4th: 169

https://world.taobao.com/item/526225588520.htm
> on stock Jan 5th: n/a, Feb 4th: 50

https://world.taobao.com/item/526204890251.htm
> on stock Jan 5th: n/a, Feb 4th: 34

Total on stock, Jan 5th: 3040 @ USD 150/unit > Buy-out : USD 456k - 20% rebate: USD 365k
Total on stock, Feb 4th: 3650 @ USD 150/unit > Buy-out : USD 547k - 20% rebate: USD 438k

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Comments

4

IMHO not terminating these China sales once and for all is an explicit insult against each and every IGG backer of the campaign. I held my horses patiently long enough until now.

launchpad ( 2016-01-05 17:04:44 +0300 )edit

Probably they also got tired of waiting for the money and are trying to minimize their loss.

andreibechet ( 2016-01-05 18:25:01 +0300 )edit
1

It is so disgusting.

@andreibechet : Quoting Mr Saarnio, December 17th 2015: "yes, nothing to do with Jolla, but it seems that our production partner from China started selling some tables which were already produced and in their stock. We are discussing with them that they would stop sales immediately"

Meanwhile there 6 auctions active on Taobao. They got more.

launchpad ( 2016-01-05 18:37:58 +0300 )edit
4

The hole thing is disgusting ... especially since we were kept in total darkness. And although everybody here yells for more details they have yet to come. Just very cryptic messages ... wow ... thanks. If Jolla will survive than they have to solve a serious trust issue.

andreibechet ( 2016-01-05 18:46:15 +0300 )edit

i didn't complain about nothing till now... but that srsly pisses me of. no answer on any email ever from jolla and my already paid device oon a chinese marketplace i don't even now where to click to buy it... is that what you meant whit people powered? srsly? da funk!

toba ( 2016-02-04 22:23:45 +0300 )edit
10

answered 2015-12-18 23:34:09 +0300

cemoi71 gravatar image

updated 2016-01-25 11:50:41 +0300

Deliver the Tablet
if tablet is not delivered, sailfish could not be so much spread because of less user propaganda.
Owner could show it to their friends or family, and is one way that could help sfos to get popularity.

Furthermore, swear is swear, and is a good advertisement for a company to hold its swear, even if the moment is difficult. But naturally it should not put the cie in danger. In this case it should be well argumented...

Anyway for the igg investor there was a risk for having the tablet. And we should live with this
On the other side, for the pre-order one, that is an other story.
Ethically and legally it should be delivered for those who paid...
Sadly I was an igg investor, and i know and understand that it could not come (hope anyway that it will). I know that jolla will do his best, and i won't critic them

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10

answered 2015-12-21 23:56:08 +0300

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updated 2015-12-21 23:56:08 +0300

Jolla095 gravatar image

Cancel the Jolla Tablet and give us an A+ port of Sailfish to some existing Tablet.

Obviously community wants a Sailfish Tablet, but does it need to be a Jolla Tablet ?

How about Jolla porting Sailfish OS to some other recent Tablet.

What if Jolla would port Sailfish OS to some decent Tablet, which is currently in the market and in exchange Jolla community (IGG contributors) would settle in redacted refund ?

The community could select a couple of Tablet models, which would be targeted for an A+ port of Sailfish OS.

We would then have the desired Sailfish OS Tablet (with maybe upgraded specs), Jolla would have some easing in this tight financial situation and would not have to spend resources with warranty issues for years.

One major hickup would naturally be the lack of Android compatibility layer in ported Sailfish OS.
Too bad there are no paid app support in Jolla store, which might have been a solution to distribute Android compatibility app to non Jolla Tablet.

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Team up with Kosagi studios, they really got the knack on hardware.

marsch ( 2015-12-23 09:41:49 +0300 )edit
8

answered 2015-12-18 10:02:01 +0300

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updated 2015-12-18 18:13:58 +0300

objectifnul gravatar image

Have it delivered by your partners.

Given what has been publicly disclosed (which is probably a small part of the full story), I would suggest that Jolla's hardware commitment should be focused to porting SFOS to licensed devices in the scope of an enlarged and accelerated partnership program.

This may include capitalization of efforts already made for the tablet development, by looking for manufacturers interested in the re-utilization of Jolla's existing know-how in tablet design, with an arrangement for delivery of already paid tablets.

So: don't waste your scare resources in manufacturing and selling tablets. Allow your partners to do it for you and for the community.

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3

To those who downvoted this answer: I'm afraid this is your best option if you want to get your tablet. Jolla is not -or no longer- a hardware company. So let specialized actors do the job. Allow Jolla guys to play their role as operating system specialists.

objectifnul ( 2015-12-18 14:07:11 +0300 )edit

Maybe you should convert your suggestion to a wiki?

SchröpfeMich ( 2015-12-18 14:58:36 +0300 )edit

@objectifnul: link? I think, the (hardware) work Jolla had to do is done. And producing is in any case done by a Chinese contract partner. Imho it's important that there is a tablet for SailfishOS soon, thus this Jolla tablet is - likely the best and fastest - way. Afwiw I want a Jolla tablet!

chappi ( 2015-12-18 15:11:38 +0300 )edit
1

@chappi I agree. However, selling a device is not only manufacturing it or subcontracting it. Yes, the design job has been done. But Jolla didn't have sufficient organization, distribution channels, working capital etc. to successfully market it by itself. That's why I am suggesting an other way. As a result, you might finally have a real device branded "Made by Someone, designed by Jolla".

objectifnul ( 2015-12-18 15:21:47 +0300 )edit
3

Jolla needs a reference platform for their supported device classes. That is: one Phone and one Tablet. The important characteristic of these reference devices is that the SFOS they are running are the plain SFOS versions, the way Jolla is thinking about the system. If these devices are build, supplied and supported by other companies does not matter.

The differentiation is, that licensing partners will always want branding, i.e. bespoke changes to the system. If all available devices are only provided by licensing partners, it will be pretty much impossible to recognise the original platform as such. Moreover will the community loose the little handle it has to participate and contribute.

The tablet is ready for manufacturing and delivery and hence may be finished by the hands of Jolla as the last device being provided by Jolla directly. If a partner can do that same thing better and quicker, but under the rules defined by Jolla - that would be fine as well.

A future, updated reference phone could be delivered by establishing a partnership with fairphone and/or puzzlephone. These are hardware manufacturers with an interest to being the original SFOS oto their devices. This would allow Jolla to concentrate on the software and hardware adaptation and leave the device design, manufacturing and support to fairphone and/or puzzlephone.

DieUnwucht ( 2015-12-18 23:00:59 +0300 )edit

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